How low can I go?

I think your best bet of a light 9 mm load that will cycle the gun with minimal recoil will involve 124-150 grain bullet with the starting charge of a fast pistol powder.

Powder coated and high tek bullets will exit the barrel with low charges that are risky with jacketed.

My full sizebCZ P09 will cycle 115 Grain lead bullet with 3.5 Grain of Red Dot gunpowder loaded at 1.1 cartridge overall length. With 125 Grains bullet it will function at three grains gunpowder.

I am assuming that your pistol is recoil operated. Maximizing the recoil duration and intensity AKA recoil dwell time for a given power factor is what will allow you to meet the mechanical requirements to cycle the gun.

Heavier bullets will allow you to do this -while minimizing the pressure, slide velocity and snappiness associated with the heavier powder charges involved to get light bullets to work.

Lighter bullets will require a heavier powder charge to make recoil power factor and operate the gun. Heavier bullets will require less powder to generate the same or similar recoil and pressure.

Ultimately you should probably assemble a box of each and see for yourself and your particular situation which direction will function better. I think the heavier bullet with the small charge of fast powder will function better and meet the requirements you have set forth in your original posting. I think you should be able to successfully complete this task with your Winchester 231 gunpowder.
 
The suggestion of Clays is a good one. N310 will do the same. Both are so quick they will make pressure faster than even expansion from using a light bullet drops pressure, so they will still seal the chamber with the case at pretty low doses.

As far as cycling goes, if the 1911 in question has been set up for function reliability, it will still cycle with pretty light springs. If it balks, sometimes taking a turn or two off the magazine spring will get it working again. The light recoil spring accelerates the slide forward slowly, so the magazine spring has a little more time to move the cartridge column up. I shot super-light gallery loads from my Goldcup with a nine pound spring without issues. That gun was fit tightly and had the feed ramp radiused and smoothed.
 
I noted that Quickload will give both muzzle pressure (good indicator for muzzle blast) and a ft-lb value for recoil. I ran some examples and tabulated the data.

I know that there is more to felt recoil than just the calculated ft-lb value, but I do not have any way of quantifying this effect.

Some of the loads are "hot" just for comparison. Others are either mid range or mild. The mild loads may or may not cycle as specific gun, but the mild 380 will cycle my HiPoint. I left out the powder type on purpose to avoid anyone using this table for load data.

When you get to 380s, short barrels probably make the blast a problem even if the gun has enough weight to keep recoil low (example: LCP). Longer barrels keep blast better, but a gun with low weight will still have more recoil than desired (example: EZ). The lowly HiPoint that I shoot gives good numbers for both blast and recoil.

Code: 
Gun     .	ctg	Weight	Length	Bullet	Charge	Vel.	Muzzle	Recoil
.          .	 --	lb	in	gr	gr	fps	psi	ft-lb
1911    .	45	2.44	5.03	185	14.5	1148	5817	9.77
1911    .	45	2.44	5.03	200	5.0	939	2421	5.69
1911    .	45	2.44	5.03	185	3.2	699	1655	2.63
Glock 17	9mm	1.57	4.49	120	8.6	1269	5576	7.21
Glock 17	9mm	1.57	4.49	120	4.3	1116	3165	4.69
1911 Cmdr	9mm	2.00	4.25	120	8.6	1253	5924	5.55
1911 Cmdr	9mm	2.00	4.25	120	4.3	1106	3403	3.62
1911 Cmdr	9mm	2.00	4.25	120	3.7	1002	3024	2.93
S&W EZ  .	380	1.16	3.68	95	3.4	982	3415	3.18
S&W EZ  .	380	1.16	3.68	95	2.8	824	2628	2.23
Bersa     .	380	1.14	3.25	95	3.4	951	3942	3.06
Bersa     .	380	1.14	3.25	95	2.8	796	3010	2.13
Ruger LCP	380	1.40	2.75	95	3.4	906	4779	2.29
Ruger LCP	380	1.40	2.75	95	2.8	755	3608	1.59
HiPoint .	380	1.81	3.50	95	3.4	970	3619	1.99
HiPoint .	380	1.81	3.50	95	2.8	813	2776	1.39
 
Ok, I’m going into the weeds here, but I have an RIA 1911 chambered in 9mm but also has a conversion barrel for .22TCM. Barely any recoil in .22TCM but packs a pretty good wallop for SD. There is one drawback though, it has a heck of a fireball.
 
For a given grip, that calculated energy makes a good felt recoil comparison.


AB,

I've never tried, but, I can't see a reason one of the barrel makers wouldn't sell you an unchambered 9mm barrel or chamber one in 380 for you. I'm thinking of something like the Kart XAct Fit. I've spoken with Fred Kart on the phone in the past, and he might be worth consulting even if he won't do it himself for some reason. Browning makes 1911 380 mags, but, again, I have no personal experience with them.
 
It appears Zukiphile has found the holy grail -- a stock barrel available for an affordable price in .380 ACP. I wish they offered a Commander length, but that's nothing a hacksaw can't fix. :eek:

Browning 1911-380 magazines won't work. They are scaled down, just like the pistol itself. I'll have to use 9mm magazines and hope I don't have to tweak the feed lips.
 
Someone on one board wrote that he used 9mm magazines, but then on another board, someone else wrote that he had a feeding problem he attributed to the lips on 9mm mags not holding the round long enough...I think.

Yet another fellow wrote about using a makarov barrel as a sleeve in a 45acp barrel. If memory serves, he was the one who used a 7 pound spring.

A lot of this was over my head and I was procrastinating as much as researching.
 
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The SAAMI maximum length of a 380 is 0.984" and the minimum for 9mm is 1.00". Those are close enough that I would expect full-length 380 FMJs to function in a 9mm magazine. If it proves to be a problem. For shorter hollow point loads, it may well be an issue.

I still wonder, since the angle of the reduced-size Browning mag will still be right, if one might possibly use a 3D printer to extend the bottom and fill in the back and sides of it. Be some trimming and fiddling work, but it might be possible to work out an adapter for one that the front toe has been trimmed off of. I've never seen one up close, so I am just speculating here.

The barrel Zukiphile found claims to be a match barrel, but I can't make out the usual dog nut you see on those. That's good because that means it can, indeed, be shortened and recrowned. But having someone with a lathe add the dog nut to match the shorter length will make it easier to fit a solid bushing closely if shooting precision is of interest.
 
Unclenick said:
I still wonder, since the angle of the reduced-size Browning mag will still be right, if one might possibly use a 3D printer to extend the bottom and fill in the back and sides of it. Be some trimming and fiddling work, but it might be possible to work out an adapter for one that the front toe has been trimmed off of. I've never seen one up close, so I am just speculating here.
Click to expand...

Just an spin on your speculation:

Old AR15 22lr conversion kits mounted a 22lr magazine inside a standard 20 round 5.56 magazine.

I wonder if a Browning 380 magazine could be mounted inside a standard magazine with spacers.
 
My experiments trying to shoot .380 ACP through a .38 Super barrel were several years ago so my memory is less than crystal clear, but I'm certain I didn't make up any custom or hybrid magazines, so I must have used wither 9mm or .38 Super mags.

Now that I think about it, .38 Super cases are slightly smaller than 9mm, so perhaps the ticket will be .38 Super magazine bodies, a custom spacer, and 9mm followers and springs.

First step will be the barrel.
 
74A95 said:
Aguila Blanca said:
Now that I think about it, .38 Super cases are slightly smaller than 9mm,
Click to expand...
Nope. The 9mm max case dimension is .394 at the rim. The max 38 Super case dimension is .406 at the rim.
Click to expand...
Oops. I forgot about the semi-rimmed case for the .38 Super. I was thinking of the case diameter. .380 case is .3739, .38 Super case is .384, and 9mm case tapers from .3910 to .3811.

So . . . trial and error.
 
So buy a new barrel rather than just light load 9mm P where magazines would be no issue?

I have some light recoil springs and no early demand for additional standard 9mm ammo.
I will see what powder puffs I can flange up.

Reverse ladder loaded, watch this space.
 
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Powderpuff 9mm

Gun: Colt 1991A1 5" with 7 lb recoil spring, well oiled. I do not have a 9mm Commander.
Bullet: Xtreme 115 gr plated. I do not have any loose .380 bullets. Yes you can load 115 gr in .380 if you can keep the OAL down.
Powder: HP38 =W231
Primer: WW SP
Brass: Mixed

115 gr Xtreme plated

4.2 gr HP38 1040 fps f 119
3.9 gr HP38 999 fps f 114
3.7 gr HP38 914 fps f 105
3.5 gr HP38 880 fps f 100
3.3 gr HP38 702 fps f 89 Failure to Eject
3.1 gr HP38 674 fps f 77 Failure to Eject

3.5 gr was the least to get off three shots with ejection and slide lock. Comfortable to shoot in that heavy gun. The f number is power factor, recoil is proportional to that momentum value. Regular econoball or my IDPA ESP ammo is f 132.

Velocity variations in these extra light loads were high, some over 100 fps. If available I would use a fast flake powder instead of 231. Bullseye, N310, or Clays, maybe. Short OAL would probably help, too.


For comparison
.380 Colt Gov't Model 3.5" barrel
100 gr Xtreme
3.2 gr HP38 841 fps f 84

Snappy in that small gun, but if you could get a Commander that low, it would be very mild.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
I recently encountered someone who wants to learn to shoot, is recoil sensitive, and who doesn't want to learn on a .22 because it's "not enough for self defense."

I have a couple of pocket 380s, but even I recognize that they can be a bit "snappy," and the triggers aren't great. Being a 1911 guy, I have long dreamed of building a 1911 chambered in .380 ACP just for situations like this, but I haven't found anyone who can/will build me a .380 barrel for a 1911.

So the easy way out would be to download a batch of 9mm and use my 9mm Commander for instructing this person. I have Winchester 231 for powder. For projectiles, I have 9mm projectiles in 115 gr, 124 gr, and 147 gr. I also have some 95 gr bullets for reloading .380 (which I have only done once).

What's the better way to get a reduced recoil 9mm load: use the 95 gr projectiles, or use the 115 gr? If I want to replicate the ballistics (recoil) of a light .380, how can I determine what to use as a powder charge?
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There are some low-recoil semi auto pistols on the market, S&W 380 EZ is one, and Walther makes some gas operated semi auto pistols that take away some of the recoil. My guess is that this person also doesn't like a "heavy" handgun (i.e., a steel revolver) because it's too heavy to hold. They might want to look at getting a stun gun.
 
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