How important is the Smith and Wesson "hammer block safety"???

lharrell79

New member
Hello all, I recently picked up a S&W 64-5 K frame. Yesterday I got around to stripping it down and giving it a good cleaning. While putting it back together, I realized that there was not a hammer block safety in it when I cracked it open. I have several K frames, and an N frame, and they all have the hammer block.

So after thinking about it for a while, I began to wonder what it's actual purpose is. I know it blocks the hammer from falling on a live round. However, the "rebound slide" already blocks the hammer from moving forward. It seems the only scenario the hammer block would serve a purpose would be if the hammer snapped in half, allowing the top portion to move forward. Has anyone ever heard of a hammer breaking in half?
 
Get another safety and put it in. Just because some idiot took it out is no reason to try and rationalize using the gun without it.
 
It's there also to prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is consciously pulled on purpose.
 
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I'm not trying to rationalize going without it, I'm already in the process of buying one on ebay. What I'm wondering, it what actual purpose does it serve? Unless I'm missing something, it seems the only purpose would be if you dropped the revolver, it landed on the hammer, and the hammer broke in half, piercing a primer. Are there any other scenarios that the hammer block would prevent?

This is strictly a curiosity question, and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge than I can answer it.
 
Sure.
For an example, like if the sear didn't hold properly, especially in the hammer cocked, single action mode.
Wouldn't need to have the hammer actually break for the hammer to fall and the gun to go off.
Some other ways for the hammer to fall without the trigger being pulled will come to mind, too.
 
g.willikers said:
It's there also to prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is consciously pulled on purpose.

Yup. It's a backup to the rebound slide, but it also prevents firing pin contact when a finger's not on the trigger. So, suppose you cocked the hammer, but decided not to fire - so long as your finger's off the trigger, the gun won't fire if you slipped during decocking and dropped the hammer. Likewise, the gun won't fire if the hammer falls after accidentally dropping a cocked gun.

EDIT: Here's a demo of the effect of the hammer block (from 4:35 to 5:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8llEiS39CAY
 
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Excellent video MrBorland. That is exactly what I was looking for. That explains it's purpose perfectly. I keep reading about the Navy sailor who drop his revolver and killed himself, and that's what prompted the hammer block safety. Everyone keeps saying it's to prevent: "If you drop your revolver and it hits the hammer, it will fire, blah blah blah." The rebound block prevents this though. After watching the video, it appears the hammer block safety is to prevent an accidental discharge while the hammer is cocked. Does that sound correct? So if you cock the hammer in single action, and then accidentally trip the sear, the hammer block safety prevents the hammer?
 
I'm not a S&W expert so I don't know for certain, but popular belief is that S&W added it to their design to make the guns "Drop Safe".

I think it was done before the redesign of the action after WWII. I know a guy who would know (or can find out), but might take a bit of time to contact him.

Somebody here probably knows, and likely will tell you before I can get ahold of my S&W guru. ;)
 
After watching the video and looking at the internals a few times, I'm thinking that it is to prevent accidental discharge "only when the hammer is cocked". Does this sound right? If the hammer is resting normally, and the revolver were dropped, the rebound block would prevent the hammer from moving forward. However, if the hammer were cocked, and the revolver were dropped, the hammer would fall.

Does this sound right?
 
lharrell79 said:
I'm thinking that it is to prevent accidental discharge "only when the hammer is cocked". Does this sound right?

I think that's its primary role, but it does serve as a backup to the rebound slide, since, in theory, the lowered hammer could break when you drop it, in which case it'd light the round off without a hammer block.
 
It's not popular belief, it's fact.

The old style hammer blocks could be disable by crud, rust, etc. One gun so affected was dropped during WW II, killing a sailor on guard duty.

The new safety is a positive safety. If it doesn't function, the gun won't function.

Some people have recommended taking the hammer block out to improve action feel. That's not reasonable, as a properly fitted hammer block floats and has no perceptible effect on action feel.
 
Howdy

Let's look at a little bit of firearm mechanical history. It was a well known fact that in the 19th Century, most of the old, large frame, single action revolvers were not safe to carry with a live round under the hammer. Here is a photo of the main lockwork parts or a Colt Single Action Army; hammer, trigger, bolt, and hand. The two arrows are pointing to the weakest portions of the hammer and trigger. The upper tip of the trigger; the sear, is very thin, and not particularly strong. The hammer has three 'cocking notches'. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch. The next one is the half cock notch, and the lowest notch is the full cock notch. Notice how the 'safety cock' notch and the half cock notch have an over hanging lip. This is to trap the sear, so the trigger cannot be pulled when the sear is in either of those two positions. At least that is the idea.

With the hammer at the 'safety cock' position, the hammer is back around 1/8" or so and the firing pin cannot contact a primer. The reality is it did not take much of a blow to either shear off the sear, or shear off the over hanging lip of the 'safety cock'. Dropping a Colt (or most other 19th Century Single Action revolvers) from waist height so that it landed on the hammer spur was almost guaranteed to shear off something so that the firing pin would hit the primer under it and the revolver would discharge. The gun did not even have to be dropped. When a horse is saddled, one of the stirrups is always folded up over the top of the saddle so the saddle could be strapped under the horse's belly. If the stirrup were then allowed to fall onto the hammer of a holstered gun, there was an excellent chance it would discharge. As a matter of fact, with the sear in either the 'safety cock' or the half cock notch, a really strong tug on the trigger could shear off the sear, rendering the revolver unsafe.

All this is why Bill Ruger changed the design of his Single Action revolvers in the 1970s revolvers to include a transfer bar. But that is a different story.

By the way, this is all about revolvers that have the hammer down, not cocked. If somebody dropped one of these revolvers while it was cocked, there is an excellent chance the sear would be jarred out of the full cock notch, discharging the firearm. But this technology is about preventing an uncocked revolver from firing, not a cocked revolver.

interiorpartswitharrows.jpg




In 1896 Iver Johnson was granted a patent for what we know today as a Transfer Bar. The revolver would not fire unless the Transfer Bar was in position between the hammer and the frame mounted firing pin. Just like a modern Ruger, the Transfer Bar would only be in position to transfer the blow of the hammer to the firing pin when the trigger was pulled all the way back.

They followed this up with a well publicized marketing campaign they called 'Hammer the Hammer'.

ARG1_070_zpsayl9grfi.jpg





Smith and Wesson chose a different design route. Their 'Safety Hammerless revolvers had a grip safety. You can see it at the rear of the grip. This was a double action only revolver, the hammer was completely internal. Just like with a Model 1911, if the grip safety was not squeezed, the firearm would not discharge. That is why these revolvers were sometimes called Lemonsqueezers.

32safetyhammerlesswithbox_zps6a26bd76.jpg








When Smith & Wesson built their first 38 caliber, side swing revolver; the 38 Military and Police Model of 1899, it did not have the Rebound Slide, neither did the Model of 1902. They relied on a spring loaded lever to ear the hammer back so the firing pin would not contact a primer.

The Rebound Slide first appeared in the model of 1905. This Model of 1905 shipped in 1908. There is no hammer block of any kind. The spring inside the Rebound Slide has pushed the slide and the trigger forward, and the hump on the top of the Rebound Slide has wedged the hammer back slightly, withdrawing the firing pin from any round under the hammer. I hear folks who are not familiar with the mechanics of these revolvers claiming how they are not safe to carry fully loaded with six rounds and should only be loaded with five rounds, with an empty chamber under the hammer. Hogwash! Just look at the mechanics. These parts are much more robust than the flimsy parts inside the old Colt. Smith & Wesson put a lot of thought into these guns, and they were designed to be fully loaded with six rounds. Yes, it is possible for a really strong blow to the hammer to shear off the toe of the hammer at its thinnest point, or to even break the hammer pivot stud, but it would probably take a lot more than just dropping the gun from waist height. One of these days I mean to do a little bit of testing of that theory.


38MPmechanism.jpg




Despite all that, as early as 1915 S&W decided to install a hammer block in the Model of 1905. The side plate was slotted, for the hammer block, which was operated by a plunger pushed back by the hand.

A new type of hammer block was designed and installed in all models beginning in 1926. Here are photos of the second style of hammer block. Notice the 'ramp' built onto the hand.

action.jpg




Here is the hammer block. It is a piece of spring steel pinned into the side plate. When the hand rises, the ramp contacts the tab on the hammer block, pushing it out of the way so the revolver can fire.

side_plate.jpg



*****************

Now let's talk about that incident where the sailor was killed when a Victory Model fell to the deck of a warship. First off, this was a very rare occurrence. Not that that is any consolation to the dead man, but old Colts firing when dropped was a much more common occurrence than a 38 M&P discharging when dropped. Second, it was not 'his revolver' that fell. The revolver in question may have fallen much farther, it may have fallen off the superstructure of the warship. All these hammer blocks, including the ones currently installed in S&W revolvers, are a redundant safety. The hump on the top of the Rebound Slide has always been the primary safety device inside every S&W revolver built since 1905. What happened in this case was a cascade of bad luck. The gun fell a great distance, and the hammer block was clogged with Cosmoline, so it did not spring back to the 'safe' position.

In 1944, after the Navy investigated the accident, the current style of sliding hammer block was designed. Approximately 40,000 revolvers were shipped back to the factory to be retrofitted with the new style of hammer block. This was wartime, and the government insisted that if S&W wanted to keep their contract to supply revolvers, they better fix it fast. I believe the engineers were called in and had the new design completed over a weekend. The revolvers that were retrofitted had a small 's' stamped near the rear sideplate screw, and a large 'S' stamped on the butt alongside the Serial Number. That is the same type of sliding hammer block that is still installed in all S&W revolvers today. It is operated by a pin on the Rebound Slide, and has been said it is more positive than the older style hammer block.

But it is still a redundant safety. The rebound slide still wedges the hammer back, and it would take a mighty blow to shear the hammer or the hammer pivot stud, so that the hammer block could actually come into play and do what it was designed to do.

I do agree there is no point to removing the hammer block. It does float, one cannot tell if it is in there or not just by the feel of the trigger. But if you peek under the hammer at just the right angle you will see it is there.
 
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IIRC, S&W did a lot of testing and found that the hollow rebound slide could be crushed by the hammer if the blow to the hammer were hard enough, or the hammer stud could be sheared off. IMHO, the former is more likely, but I have not tried either (and don't plan to).

When S&W first came out with the Model 1905, First Change, they thought the new rebound slide was an adequate hammer block, the same as Colt thought the rebound lever was adequate for the same function. Something (I assume user experience) caused both companies to design hammer blocks. Colt's was the justly famous "positive" safety (c.1909); it was that safety, and Colt's advertising, that forced S&W to install their first hammer block safety (c.1915). Whether either company actually had problems is lost in history.

The Colt hammer block was "positive", mechanically operated both ways; S&W's was spring loaded and it was grease and dirt that made the spring inoperable and resulted in the WWII incident.

Why not a transfer bar? Iver Johnson had used one since 1894. But the transfer bar has a basic problem. It is ALWAYS struck by the hammer, every shot, every time. And those repeated blows can cause the transfer bar to break, and Ruger's have done so. But a hammer block is never struck by the hammer unless a serious problem has already occurred.

Jim
 
So Ruger reinvented the wheel ?? !!!

Let's look at a little bit of firearm mechanical history.
I find this thread to be of particular interest as I recently offered to clean and old revolver for a friend. Surprised to find that it too has a transfer bar. It is an H&R Model 733 in .32 S&W. L. and although very tight, it's pretty dirty. ... ;)

Be Safe !!!
 
When I was a kid of 10 or 12 a person who lived down the street from me was killed when an older revolver somehow fell and hit the front porch floor. The gun did not have a hammer block safety, transfer bar, or any type of safety what so ever. The gun hit the floor on the hammer and it went off. Since your gun had one, definitely replace it with a new one. That safety is there to keep it from firing should it fall and the hammer strikes something solid.
 
Many of the low cost revolvers made in the roughly 1870-1920 time frame had few if any safety provisions of any kind, not even a safety notch in the hammer. The simple truth is that in those days, people had more of a tendency to accept the idea that "s___ happens" and that sometimes people get killed.

If the Spanish government had had an EPA and an OSHA, Old Chris would never have been allowed to sail off in those run down ships.

Jim
 
The notion that the hammer block is necessary to prevent firing if a cocked hammer is somehow dropped without a finger on the trigger can be readily demonstrated to be false.

Take a S&W revolver and remove the hammer block. Reassemble the revolver. With it completely unloaded, cock the revolver, point it toward the ceiling, and drop a pencil with a fairly new eraser down the barrel, eraser end down. Pull the trigger, and the pencil will jump (sometimes all the way out the barrel), signifying that the pin hit the eraser just as it would have hit a primer.

Now cock it again and drop the pencil again. This time, start tapping on the trigger with something (I use a teaspoon). After a couple of taps, the hammer drops, but the pencil doesn't move.

Still skeptical? OK, cock the revover with the cylinder open (if you know how), put your pinky over the firing pin hole in the recoil shield, and pull the trigger. After putting a bandaid on your bleeding finger, do it again (use the other pinky) this time tapping the trigger with the spoon. Hammer will fall and your second pinky won't feel a thing.

The pencil-and-spoon test simulates a push-off, a jar-off, a sear failure, or even a twig brushing the trigger of some moron's gun as he walks through the wood with it cocked. What happens is that as the trigger falls, the rebound slide moves forward, and it will always get home before the hammer does.

The Navy event was borne of the notion that sufficient force could be applied to the hammer of an uncocked revolver to cause it to fire. This is theoretically possible if (a) the rebound slide fails, (b) the internal hammer spur (the part that rides on the rebound slide) fails, or (c) the hammer pivot pin fails. I seriously doubt that it has ever happened in real life. I happened to witness experiments at Smith & Wesson, and after a lot of pounding on the hammer, all that ever broke was the external hammer spur (the thing you put your thumb on to cock the hammer). Not once could a revolver be made to fire this way.

To take it one step further. Examine the post-Navy hammer block. With the hammer cocked, the hammer block is retracted (i.e., out of the way of the falling hammer). If somehow you hypothesized that the hammer could pushed or jarred off and the trigger did not move forward (e.g., rebound slide spring missing; rebound slide frozen in place), so that the rebound slide did not move forward, the hammer block would remain retracted, since its action is dependent on the movement of the rebound slide (off of which the hammer block cams). If this were to happen, the revolver would fire, notwithstanding the hammer block. (By the way, I am unaware of my hypothetical scenario ever happening in real life.)

I cannot prove this, and no one at Smith & Wesson has ever admitted it (and the folks there at the time are all dead), but I am convinced that Smith added the hammer block simply to placate the Navy and prevent cancellation of a contract.
 
RKG said:
Take a S&W revolver and remove the hammer block. Reassemble the revolver. With it completely unloaded, cock the revolver, point it toward the ceiling, and drop a pencil with a fairly new eraser down the barrel, eraser end down. Pull the trigger, and the pencil will jump (sometimes all the way out the barrel), signifying that the pin hit the eraser just as it would have hit a primer.

Now cock it again and drop the pencil again. This time, start tapping on the trigger with something (I use a teaspoon). After a couple of taps, the hammer drops, but the pencil doesn't move.

Still skeptical? OK, cock the revover with the cylinder open (if you know how), put your pinky over the firing pin hole in the recoil shield, and pull the trigger. After putting a bandaid on your bleeding finger, do it again (use the other pinky) this time tapping the trigger with the spoon. Hammer will fall and your second pinky won't feel a thing.

I have done something similar to this. No bleeding and instead of a spoon, I used a thread attached to the trigger. Pull the thread fast enough and the thread breaks and the trigger return spring moves the trigger and operates the safety features as designed. This, on Ruger revolvers with the transfer bar and a S&W K-22 (as I recall, from 30 years ago).

So, yes, I concur with RKG.

Lost Sheep
 
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