How do you Choose your Defensive Load?
- Thread starter SigfanTN
- Start date
That's one thing that I hope most of us agree on; that we don't need to trust overpriced, overhyped ammo that doesn't perform as well in the real world. 
Whirlwind06
New member
I'm not going to spend $50 for 20 rounds of hollow point ammo. Used to carry WWB personal defense ammo. Can't get that either now. So I guess they all fall with ball.
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Technosavant
New member
Reliability of the bullet design matters a lot in my semiautos (revolvers don't have feeding problems). I have been using the Hornady XTP HP design lately- it's readily available to me, is quite accurate, and feeds very well in my 1911s.
I also tend to prefer heavier and slower bullets- 230gr in .45ACP, in .38spl and .357mag I use 158gr bullets (in the revolvers it also has the side effect of minimizing forcing cone and top strap wear).
I also tend to prefer heavier and slower bullets- 230gr in .45ACP, in .38spl and .357mag I use 158gr bullets (in the revolvers it also has the side effect of minimizing forcing cone and top strap wear).
Another one that agree's with David. Right now I have HST's because they used to be cheap. I would use pretty much any of the big name ammo, Federal, Speer, Remington, Hornandy and also have carried Double Tap when it was affordable. Of course it's all went up to insane prices now. I'm glad I stocked up when I did.
Keltyke said:
The police's #1 criteria is stopping power with minimal chance of hitting innocent bystanders (some like good ballistics through windows as well), which is also mine.
The rest is exactly my point. I don't think there are any rounds that are significantly better than others but I do believe some develop a reputation. If you use whatever your local LE uses, a prosecutor in your self defense trial could never show the jury that you use poison tipped bullets designed to shred a man from inside-out before stopping his heart instantly with a patented "artery-plugger" metal, thus painting you as an overreacting trigger-happy nuke-tosser instead of a responsible carrying citizen. I am much more comfortable with whatever plain ol JHPs I can get my hands on than high powered "magicsupercomboultrakill" bullets.
AFAIK, Ayoob recommends the same.
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I usually exclude +p's for my semi-autos ... don't like the pounding they give the gun and I don't think the slight speed difference will cause any problems. I do carry +p's in my car gun, a Taurus snubbie ... Then .. I read a lot about various makes of JHPs ... then ... I buy a bunch and try them out .. that's how I discovered both my Springer Loaded 1911 (nightstand gun) and my Kimber UCII (one of my carry guns) like Golden Sabers best, so that's what they're loaded with ... my other carry gun, a Kahr PM9, is currently loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ... I got enough to test it (after a two-month wait on delivery at Cabela's) and every round fed perfectly ... so ... my rules are, pick a solid brand name, read about its performance, and make sure it works in the gun ... piece of cake ...
Henry Frapp
New member
First: reliability.. Then , Stopping power. then legallity. I have killed deer with the same guns I have for CCW. Hornandy XTP in 38 and 45 acp did not expand in the deer I shot and did not exit. Ball ammo on the other hand did exit the animal. I have found that a mid to heavy bullet does best as far as the animals I have killed under 25 yards and that is what I would expect if I had to shoot a person. Legallity.... If you shoot some one with a hollow point +p, The court may see you as a killer, Something to keep in mind. Spend the money on a blister pack of glaser safety slugs, I have found that they will kill effectively and stray bullets flying around aren't really an issue and should you ever have to go to court, well let's just say the name says it all.
Technosavant
New member
Ayoob also recommends carrying the same make and model of weapon as the local LEO. That same overzealous prosecutor can also make the claim that you are a LEO wannabe or picked that combo because it is extra lethal. They can say what they like and twist anything to seem like you're an evil person who kicks three legged puppies for fun.
Whatever you pick, just be able to explain in a simple manner as to why you fed the gun that particular kind of ammunition. The circumstances will matter more than the tool used.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Not likely. No way to support a claim that the round is extra lethal because the police don't pick rounds based on that issue. And the LEO wannabee issue is also a non-starter because (1) many well recognized trainers recommend the LE ammo and (2) the round is not selected because yo want to be a LEO, it is selected because LE uses tested and recognized standards in selecting ammo.
FWIW, I've never seen or heard of the prosecution raising the issue of someone selecting ammo because LE used it.
I don't think I'll be worried about +P hollow points. The court would not likely see me as a killer if it is a good shoot. I shoot +P ammo because I carry a compact pistol with a shorter barrel. I don't own a chrono, but I suspect that I get similar or lower velocity as I would using standard pressure ammo out of a full size gun.
I mean no offense, but I refuse to trust the life of me and mine to a capsule full of birdshot. I have seen nothing about the Glaser product that makes me feel confident it will serve my needs. :barf:
Lost Sheep
New member
How do you choose yours?
I note that you do cite your sources "124 g Gold Dot because it's the middle weight for the typical 9mm" and "the Gold Dot has a good reputation", but that leaves me still wondering what your thought processes.
In short, I do not see where you explain how you chose your prefered carry rounds.
For example, I have Glaser Safety Slugs in my house gun because I really don't want to penetrate my exterior walls with slugs still able to deliver deadly force.
If I carry outside the house, 125 Grain Winchester Silvertips (357 magnum in my 3" SP101) because of Marshall & Sanow's statistics. I recognize that many argue with their statistical methods, but I accept the limitations of their sampling methods and believe their evidence, while anecdotal, is compelling. Of the shootings where these were used, well over 90% of those people who were hit, stopped doing what they were doing after the one hit. One caveat: In the wintertime, when people are wearing heavier clothing around here, I would probably opt for a heavier version of the same bullet (45 ACP).
Further outside the house, I carry 300 Grain hard cast flat point solids at 1200 fps (454 Casull). For the penetration. I figure if I need to light one up, it will be to break bone on a brown bear at close range. I have relied mostly on anecdotal evidence from people who have testified on these forums of the effectiveness of those slugs at that speed. I never hope to take down a bear, but if it's a bear or me, I intend it to be the bear.
I have to admit that I have not actually test-fired the Glasers. They are a little expensive for experimenting around. I think I will finally "bite the bullet" and make up some mock-ups of my house walls to test the Glasers.
That's how I chose, why I chose and the sources of the information I used.
I am curious. What is it the proponents of the "FBI Load" that you find persuasive?
Lost Sheep
SigfanTN, I beg your pardon.
I note that you do cite your sources "124 g Gold Dot because it's the middle weight for the typical 9mm" and "the Gold Dot has a good reputation", but that leaves me still wondering what your thought processes.
In short, I do not see where you explain how you chose your prefered carry rounds.
For example, I have Glaser Safety Slugs in my house gun because I really don't want to penetrate my exterior walls with slugs still able to deliver deadly force.
If I carry outside the house, 125 Grain Winchester Silvertips (357 magnum in my 3" SP101) because of Marshall & Sanow's statistics. I recognize that many argue with their statistical methods, but I accept the limitations of their sampling methods and believe their evidence, while anecdotal, is compelling. Of the shootings where these were used, well over 90% of those people who were hit, stopped doing what they were doing after the one hit. One caveat: In the wintertime, when people are wearing heavier clothing around here, I would probably opt for a heavier version of the same bullet (45 ACP).
Further outside the house, I carry 300 Grain hard cast flat point solids at 1200 fps (454 Casull). For the penetration. I figure if I need to light one up, it will be to break bone on a brown bear at close range. I have relied mostly on anecdotal evidence from people who have testified on these forums of the effectiveness of those slugs at that speed. I never hope to take down a bear, but if it's a bear or me, I intend it to be the bear.
I have to admit that I have not actually test-fired the Glasers. They are a little expensive for experimenting around. I think I will finally "bite the bullet" and make up some mock-ups of my house walls to test the Glasers.
That's how I chose, why I chose and the sources of the information I used.
I am curious. What is it the proponents of the "FBI Load" that you find persuasive?
Lost Sheep
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Technosavant
New member
There's no way to support a claim of using some other off the shelf choice or a standard handload as being some "super duper extra lethal killer round" either, but others say that it is exactly what prosecutors will claim.
Like I said, it just comes down to being able to articulate clearly a reasonable reason for having used what you used. If you can do that, the vast majority of juries will see through whatever BS is tossed up. As said before, it's the circumstances that will be far more a determining factor than the tool. If the circumstances are iffy, then the rest can come into play, but only then- the one case where even reloads have been a factor was one with funky circumstances.
2 main things I look for - ( I mainly carry .45 ACP, but
sometimes .32 ACP is all that I can hide.)
I looked for;
1 - reliability. The round must function the pistol every time, no maybe, no hickups or hangups.
2 - the round must be available locally. Exotic stuff I have to order from online is great for some hunting loads or odd calibers, but if I carry it and I need it, I need it NOW. Basic stuff is preferred.
3. - I fine Remington JHP's work just fine in my full size and Commander .45's, but I use ball ammo in my Compact because it probably won't expand anyway, and it might be just a shade more reliable.
(This also applies to my shotgun - standard Remington 00 buck and rifled slugs, no exotic ammo.)
4. - I practice mostly with what I carry.
That's it. I know what to expect, where to buy it, and that it will work. That keeps me comfortable.
Took me about 35 years to figure this out.
mark
sometimes .32 ACP is all that I can hide.)
I looked for;
1 - reliability. The round must function the pistol every time, no maybe, no hickups or hangups.
2 - the round must be available locally. Exotic stuff I have to order from online is great for some hunting loads or odd calibers, but if I carry it and I need it, I need it NOW. Basic stuff is preferred.
3. - I fine Remington JHP's work just fine in my full size and Commander .45's, but I use ball ammo in my Compact because it probably won't expand anyway, and it might be just a shade more reliable.
(This also applies to my shotgun - standard Remington 00 buck and rifled slugs, no exotic ammo.)
4. - I practice mostly with what I carry.
That's it. I know what to expect, where to buy it, and that it will work. That keeps me comfortable.
Took me about 35 years to figure this out.
mark
For brevity of my OP I did not go further in depth. I have little expertise in this arena, but I have read nearly everything I have come across about wound ballistics and penetration data including the Marshall and Sanow stats. This helped me form general opinions of my own about what should be effective. For example, the Gold Dots seem to have a good reputation for reliable expansion. Several years ago when I first purchased hollow point ammo as a 21 year old new handgun owner, I listened to the gun store person who recommended the Hydrashock. I had used and family members had used plenty of Federal and Winchester ammo for hunting deer, so I felt Federal would not be a bad choice. Later on as I began to see some stories of the hydrashocks failures to expand, it prompted me to look further. I discovered the HST's which were available relatively cheap online, and the claims were they didn't have the issues the original hydrashock had. I fired a few into water jugs to see the expansion, and that is what I have the most of right now. They have been function tested for reliability in mine and my wife's semi's, as well as the GD so I feel confident with this choice. We still have enough to put a mag or two through our guns at the range each time we go.
As for bullet weight, I was more influenced by the choice of this weight in 9mm as a NATO standard. I felt like I belonged more to the fast and light camp, and feel like a good reliably expanding hollow point in this weight would have a good combination of energy and penetration with less likelyhood of over penetration due to the hollow point's characteristics.
If I had a .357 magnum, then I would probably select the same load, or at least the same bullet weight (those silvertips are darned expensive!
). It is hard to argue with any pistol bullet traveling at those speeds.Fortunately I don't expect to have to worry about bears here. Someone down the road from where I hunted, (and still try to, but chances to go are more limited) claims to have seen a black bear several years ago. I know they are around, especially in the eastern part of TN, but I usually have a rifle with me anyway.
Sorry, hope you don't mind, but I put those two paragraphs together out of order from your post, but wanted to respond with my thoughts.
I do not like any of the specialty ammo that uses something other than a bullet. As a youngster, I have shot a fair amount of rats and snakes with shotshells from my stepdad's .38. They worked good for that. From what I have seen, there is little convincing evidence that these new rounds are very much different. Sure, I've seen a photo or two showing the devastating wounds that aren't very deep, but I'm not convinced that that 300lb meth addict that is after me* and my wife will stop just because I shredded a little flesh. I want my bullet to penetrate into his vitals to ensure he stops. I would never use ball ammo in hopes that the hollowpoints will prevent over penetration.
I would be interested in seeing a post with results of your test. It seems another issue with that group of ammo (glasers, extreme shock, etc.) is that it's so expensive few people test it in their guns or know what it will actually do. The Box o' Truth tested some here, but the glasers weren't really represented. Page 4 of that just shows some pellets after blowing up a water jug.
I have worked out in my home, once my wife and I are safe in the bedroom, the best place for us to be if we have to shoot. If I miss or over penetrate, our setup will ensure the bullet will end up hitting the brick exterior of our house.
Thanks for that also as I am really looking for opinions different from mine (or the same), with that reasoning or thought process explained. Sorry for not expanding on mine in the OP.
Well, going back to what I said earlier, that I was originally in the fast and light camp. As for your .357 magnum load, I feel is more than adequate. In the .38spcl snubby that I carry, I have thought that maybe the heavier bullet would ensure better penetration, since the 125g bullets in my current ammo aren't going as fast as the 9mm I carry.
Hopefully I have explained what you wanted to know because I'm tired of typing.
*And no I don't really believe there is a 300lb meth addict out to get me!
OldMarksman
Staff
How about "the best of whatever HP loads I can find in the stores?"
Actually, for the .38 and .357 revolvers, any high-end round from a reputable maker, in the summer; I've bought some Hornady Critical Defense loads, which may be better in cold weather when people wear heavier clothes. By the way, I use .38 Specials in the 642, and .38 +P in the Model 60. I personally have no need for magnum loads and would not want to fire one indoors.
I just acquired a new M&P9c. I've been able to accumulate a few boxes of Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain loads. Assuming they function reliably...
I'm not sure I know how many to shoot before I "know" that. A lot of sources say 200 rounds, but (1) I don't have that many and they are expensive, and (2) I'm still not convinced that one cannot rely on the experience of others with a gun of that kind. Haven't seen any Hornady-specific reports, but the gist of the postings seems to be that the M&P9 eats anything.
Comments welcome.
Actually, for the .38 and .357 revolvers, any high-end round from a reputable maker, in the summer; I've bought some Hornady Critical Defense loads, which may be better in cold weather when people wear heavier clothes. By the way, I use .38 Specials in the 642, and .38 +P in the Model 60. I personally have no need for magnum loads and would not want to fire one indoors.
I just acquired a new M&P9c. I've been able to accumulate a few boxes of Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain loads. Assuming they function reliably...
I'm not sure I know how many to shoot before I "know" that. A lot of sources say 200 rounds, but (1) I don't have that many and they are expensive, and (2) I'm still not convinced that one cannot rely on the experience of others with a gun of that kind. Haven't seen any Hornady-specific reports, but the gist of the postings seems to be that the M&P9 eats anything.
Comments welcome.
Truth be told , I have only bought one box of SD ammo back when I first bought my gun. ( I'm realizing the erros of my ways here by not testing further .... shut I have a Glock !!! )
Winchester Ranger LE. Mainly due to the fact that I was a long time friend of one of the guys that worked at the store and he gave them to me highly recommended and at a good price.
I've fired about 20 of the 50 rounds he gave me , and may fire the rest leaving enough to fill a full mag. If I haven't hit or killed something by 13 rounds , then I can switch back to FMJ for Mag 2.
) Winchester Ranger LE. Mainly due to the fact that I was a long time friend of one of the guys that worked at the store and he gave them to me highly recommended and at a good price.
I've fired about 20 of the 50 rounds he gave me , and may fire the rest leaving enough to fill a full mag. If I haven't hit or killed something by 13 rounds , then I can switch back to FMJ for Mag 2.
omnibus1967
New member
feeds in my pistol
good penetration
good expansion
must have all 3 in my chosen rounds.
example:........Rem 147gr golden saber 9mm. 14" penetration.. .62 expansion.
(data from brassfetcher).
good penetration
good expansion
must have all 3 in my chosen rounds.
example:........Rem 147gr golden saber 9mm. 14" penetration.. .62 expansion.
(data from brassfetcher).