How do the manufacturers sight in a rifle?

A

aarondhgraham

New member
At the factory, how are rifles sighted in?

I'm curious about the manufacturing process,,,
This question could also apply to handguns.

I recently spoke with a gentleman who said he worked for Mossberg "way back when.",,,
He said that there was a jig that aligned the sights when they were attached,,,
And the guns were never test fired to ensure proper sight orientation.

I know I have bought a new rifle and the sights were just spot on,,,
My CZ 452 Trainer was/is almost perfect at 50 yards,,,
That's with three different brands of ammunition.

The Savage .22 I recently purchased was almost a foot off at 50 yards.

Nice tight group that I am happy with,,,
But centered about 11 inches towards the 8:00 position,,,
I still haven't gotten it adjusted to what I would call spot on at 50 yards.

I'm curious about the process,,,
And the tolerances they find acceptable.

Aarond

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I'm pretty sure that the guns are sighted in by having the sights mounted in the default location and then being placed in a rack/box/crate.
 
Firearms aren't sighted in at their origin because it's rare that two people will have the same zero settings on their sight(s). We all hold them differently and that determines where their muzzle points when the bullet leaves. The muzzle axis starts to move away from where it was when the round fired to when it goes out the muzzle.
 
My CZ 452 Trainer was/is almost perfect at 50 yards,,,
Click to expand...

I believe CZ does sight their rifles in, how I'm not sure. When you bought your rifle you should have also gotten a test target showing the accuracy of your rifle at 50 yards.

Anschutz does too, or did, I got a text target for my 1807 I bought in the late 70s.

Its true people have different zeros but it you get a test target with your rifle you can bet it will be on paper and only need a bit of tweaking.
 
I had always "assumed" that all new rifles would at least be bore sighted,,,
Now bear in mind I have no idea how that would be done.

Maybe one of those laser inserts beaming at 25 yards,,,
But surely the rifle manufacturers have some technique for doing this..

I think I would find it reassuring to know,,,
That a new rifle would be sighted in to some standard.

Its true people have different zeros but it you get a test target with your rifle you can bet it will be on paper and only need a bit of tweaking.
Click to expand...

I think Kraigwy has the right take on this subject.

Even though everyone will center their groups differently,,,
Several people's groups on the same rifle,,,
Should not be too far apart.

It's like when you bore-sight a scope,,,
In theory you have done what I am describing.

If it's a valid thing for scoped rifles,,,
Why wouldn't it also hold true for iron sights?

If I knew someone with a Ransom rest,,,
I would pay a reasonable amount of money to use that,,,
Not only would I be able to test the inherent accuracy of my guns,,,
But I would also use that opportunity to adjust the sights to a "mechanical zero".

Just to give me and my guns a known point of reference to start from.

I would be very interested in knowing just how close (or far off) my firearms actually are to that mechanical zero .

Aarond

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interesting post not thought about much...

IIRC, gunsmiths use to advertise & charge "sighting-in" guns as a service. The customer paid for the ammo with any extra left in the box returned. Bore sighting is a legit gunsmith service though & probably what happens at the factory with high-end firearms. Pistol sights, probably just set to center horizontal & vertical(?)

...bug
 
Not all factories do. I remember HK-91s used to be packed with their sighting in targets. Other factories (especially American) proof test them and do sight them in per se. Why bother? Everybody sees the sights different from one another.
 
Kraig, I'm not aware of any Anschutz .22 rimfire match rifle being sighted in when sold. They're shipped to distributors without sights and sold that way at retail. When built, either the barreled action or complete rifle's clamped in an accuracy cradle then test fired (with RWS ammo so I've been told) at 50 meters. The test groups are on plain tagboard paper without rings, then one's cut out and packaged with the rifle. Anschutz has no idea what sights will be put on their rifle; that's up to the customer. And no sight's sold previously adjusted to bore sight or even zeroed for Anschutz rifles.

Therefore, I wouldn't make a claim that they're going to be on paper or even need a slight adjustment on any sights that are put on them.

The US Navy Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit built many match winning and record setting M1911 pistols and M1 rifles. They were both tested in machine rests for accuracy. Some had their sights zeroed on paper as shot from those rests (Broadway machine rest for pistols, different one for rifles) to see how close they would be to normal position holding and shooting. None of them were zeroed when hand held; they all needed some adjustment. That's because they moved different when hand held versus machine held while the bullets went down their barrel.

Their M1's were adjusted for windage zero when issued to team members. The shooter would set the rear sight to windage zero, go into sitting position, shoot one clip rapid fire at 200 yards, then the armorer would adjust the front sight to move the shot group to bullseye center. Then this would be repeated to make final adjustments. If one looked at the front sights on all the M1's for a team, each one would be at a different horizontal position on the gas cylinder locking ring's dovetail they were clamped on. The shooter would adjust the rear sight for elevation zero. Then the rear sight's elevation knob would be loosened and set to "2" to match the 200-yard elevation zero the sight was set at.
 
Sighting in rifles at the factory would take way too much time and be completely pointless. As Bart said, the way that folks hold the rifle and look at the sights means that the gun won't be sighted correctly for two different people anyway.

All they really need to do, to be "close enough" to be considered sighted in at the factory is have all the sights premade or preset to a setting that they know is about right. If all guns are built the same (within tolerances) and all sights are built the same (within tolerances) then all guns with those sights installed will be sighted to the same POI, within tolerances.

Perfect example of different sight adjustments for different folks.... My dad is one of the best shots I've ever known, especially snap shooting. More than once, I've watched him drop a deer that ran from cover before I could shoulder my gun.

His sight settings though... I have no idea how he hits anything, ever. I took his old 22 woodchucking hunting once. I set up an ambush for one I couldn't get close to any other way. When it came out, I was hiding in a hay wagon not 20 yards away. I shot at that thing 4 or 5 times (it had no idea where I was and didn't run) until I finally saw a shot hit a couple of FEET high. I adjusted my aim and killed it. I then proceeded to adjust the sight so I wasn't 2 feet high at 20 yards (the rear sight had been on the highest point of the post). When I went home, I told my dad. He says "What you talkin' 'bout, boy, that gun is perfect!" We set up a target, he shoots a few in his famous style, BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG, all a couple of feet.... low. I've never seen anyone else adjust their sights like he does and I have no idea how he holds on target but it sure works for him.

Granted, his methods are no doubt technically "incorrect" but he'll out shoot most folks and what good would a factory "sighted" rifle be for him?
 
Brian, everyone sees the same iron sight picture when their eye's behind the rear sight at the same place for a given front and rear sight alignment with the target. With both sights aligned on the target, it appears the same for everyone when their eye's aligned with the sight-target axis.
 
Assuming everyone uses the same sight "alignment" and hold on target.

The light obviously doesn't care who's looking at it but folks sure do shoot the same gun different and it's not just a matter of recoil management and what-not. Obviously, my dad is an extreme example
 
I don't remember if my CZ 452 came with a test target or not. I do know the sights were spot on. The ramp sight was so good, it was hard to believe. That is one of the reasons I have had some work done on the gun to make it better.

My Annie came dis-assembled and had to be put together before it could be shot. It did come with a fifty yard test target that was shot at 50 meters that was pretty darn good. I have been able to duplicate that target myself with Lapua std velocity and Lapua Center X. I have come close to duplicating that target at 100 yards. . . I get SOOOO close and then I manage to collect another frequent flyer. . .:)
 
About those darned variables,,,

...everyone sees the same iron sight picture when their eye's behind the rear sight at the same place for a given front and rear sight alignment with the target. With both sights aligned on the target, it appears the same for everyone when their eye's aligned with the sight-target axis.
Click to expand...

^^^ This makes sense to me. ^^^

The variable is how each person aligns the sights,,,
If Bill hits the bullseye but Joe hits below the bullseye,,,
Isn't it obvious that Joe aligns the front sight lower than Bill?

If a rifle is clamped down in a stationary rest with a mechanical trigger actuator,,,
And two shooters align the sights on the target in exactly the same way,,,
The bullet has to impact in virtually the same place.

Aarond

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Yes, sight alignment and sight picture have to be the same for valid comparisons.

Decades ago, some rifle shooters using post front sights used a "center hold" putting the flat top of the post vertically centered on the bullseye. If they changed to a 6- o'clock "pumpkin on a fence post" hold, they had to come up 2 or 3 MOA on their rear sight for an elevation zero.
 
Bought a new Ruger SR 1911CMD last year, shot 6" low at 10yds, sent it back, they replaced it for other reasons. New one shot 6" low also. The tech said they shoot the pistols for group size but not to regulate the sights. I had them install a black front sight so I could file it down. I had to file a Kimber sight down also. Most guns I've bought shoot to the sights. With Ruger's answer, you bought it it's yours. Got the same answer form Beretta but they were snotty about it, won't buy another Beretta, at least not a new one.
It's always disappointing when I buy a new gun and something is wrong with it but it happens a lot now days. One would think with the modern machinery and modern materials, you'd never have problems but that's not the case.
 
I learned a long time ago that you can put a pistol in the hands of 20 different shooters and it will hit in 20 different places. I used to adjust the sights on our service pistols in the department. A few years ago we got new pistols. I adjusted none of them. I shot all of them and they were zeroed at 25 yards. My answer was "adjust your grip because I am not adjusting your sights."
 
So, my entire point was,,,

So, my entire point was,,,
A rifle can be zeroed at the factory,,,
Just the same as when someone bore sights a scope.

Different shooters will aim differently,,,
Therefore creating a different point of impact,,,
But the rifle will shoot to the same point if aimed the same.

Wouldn't you want a rifle that was zeroed at the factory,,,
If for nothing else than to give you a known point to start from.

With a new rifle (or handgun) I know that I always wonder,,,
Am I missing because of my technique,,,
Or because the sights are way off.

A good factory or second market zero would do that for me.

Aarond

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I don't care if they're sighted from the factory. First thing I do is go sight a gun in. I wouldn't think of shooting any target that mattered without verifying zero.
Besides, I don't expect any gun to shoot different ammo the same anyway nor do I think everyone wants their gun zeroed for the same distance.
 
Aarond, everyone using the same scope aims it the same way if it's focused correctly on the target. It's focus will be the same for every one. The scopes eyepiece. Reds adjusted for race persons eyesight. The target image focuses the same on the reticule for every one.

Having shot in and coached many long range team matches where four people shoot the same rifle and ammo, each shooter used a different zero because we don't all hold the rifle the same while billets go through the barrel. Each shooters bullets start out at different angles relative to the line of sight when the round fires. By the tine it exits the muzzle, it's at the same angle relative to the target for everyone.

Same thing for aperture sights at each end of the barreled action.

If you don't believe this, why are handgun's front sight top higher than their rear sight top relative to their bore axis when zeroed my the shooter for 25 yards? When their sights are aligned on target, the bore axis points below the aiming point. That axis rises with the gun in recoil then points a bit above the aiming point when the bullet exits. Go measure some centerfire handgun sight heights above bore axis.
 
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