How Criminals Obtain Guns

[Mainah]

Most armed criminals who are really around for awhile, not broke drug addicts who indescrimently rob you on the street or hold up liquor stores, are out there making what is considered great $$ by working folks.

A drug dealing gang banger is probably not going to stick out their neck to steal anything except a load of cash from another rival gang - they are going to try to stay under the radar and use their financial means to secure whatever they need (which could come from theiving drug addicts or a more organized source).. if you have the $$ you can pretty much buy anything.

There is a lot of cold steel out there, for instance when someone dies a huge collection can instantly disperse without any legal ramifications even in a state with strict controls/tracking. Often on the grey market a regulated thing like a gun is worth more, so there's motivation to sell them under the table.

My point is, the criminals doing most of the killing are probably not stealing their guns.

I agree, especially since most experienced drug dealers know that they can count on customers with clean records to buy guns legally and exchange them for drugs. That's a problem here in Maine where we respect gun rights but are dealing with people who have direct access to major drug supplies and also live in states that restrict gun rights like MA, CT, and NY. It creates an unfortunate free market exchange.

The problem isn't simply the hard case dealers. It's also the high local population of drug addicts who fuel the whole thing. From the perspective of someone who grew up in a major city and moved here it feels like a significant population of addicts includes a segment of locals who are figuring out how to be real gangsters.

 

[44 AMP]

Apologies if my imprecise language created some misconceptions. This is a very tricksy law because of the nuances of our language and various understandings, plus the legal interpretation.

My saying "declaring it as a gift" was a poor choice of phrase. What I meant to convey was declaring or identifying it as a gift, if asked.

"A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm."

The 4473 doesn't ask if its a gift. It asks if you are the actual buyer. And it states that you are the actual buyer, if it is a bona fide gift, and describes what a bona fide gift is. So its up to you to determine if you are the actual buyer, as described. and answer.

you don't actually fill out a box marked "gift" or answer a question if it is a gift on the form. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[5whiskey]

The Internet argument is that social media allows an easy meet and great private sale than just wandering around the gun show. There is a debate about how many of these privates sales are to forbidden individuals. Some estimates (and I haven't evaluated the validity) say 50 to 85% of such Internet set up sales are in the forbidden category

I only have anecdotal evidence, but those “some estimates” are laughable. I occasionally work with an atf field agent. ATF was on a kick to troll through armslist and gunbroker for a little while a few years ago. When they contacted sellers and posed as prohibited persons, or tried to meet out of state, or any other obvious on the face violation, 95% of the sellers declined to even meet. That effort was quickly dropped and the business of trying to use informants to reach the true black market resumed as it was much more successful. So not a scientific study, but compelling anecdotal evidence in my experience. I know of this first hand. I can assure you it is much more likely that greater than 85% of internet sales are legit.

 

[5whiskey]

Yet we see day in and day out, stories of felons arrested in possession of a firearm. They never seem to be prosecuted on that charge either.

I dunno, maybe where you are from that’s true. My local prosecutor usually pursues a conviction in these cases, and it is frequently charged as a stand alone crime. Sure there are some circumstances where it is not vigorously prosecuted, but I would say most of the time it is. These things vary from state to state, even county to county.

 

[davidsog]

Most hardcore criminals get their firearms from their own sources. One can walk into any public housing and with the right connections be offered weapons.

You can even get artillery, rockets, and explosives......

Numerous officials said the principal source for the black market weapons was theft from United States military bases, ships and warehouses. Among the stolen weapons officials say have been found on the black market are land mines, plastic explosives, missiles, bazookas, grenade launchers and artillery.

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/29/...se-in-arms-stolen-from-us-military-bases.html

More than $1 million in weapons parts and sensitive military equipment was stolen out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and sold in a vast black market, some of it to foreign buyers through eBay, according to testimony at a federal trial this week.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/2017/08/30/federal-trial-details-black-market-for-military-equipment/

Some of these remain domestic while many go overseas.

The US appears to be the most common source country for arms that are for sale on the dark web. Almost 60 per cent of the firearms listings are associated with products that originate from the US. However, Europe represents the largest market for arms trade on the dark web, generating revenues that are around five times higher than the US.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2091.html

The Dark Web is now a growing source of illegal weapons.

The largest debate is whether most illegal firearms come from theft, licensed merchants performing illegal transactions, or illegal private sales. Without actual fact, we are simply taking a shot in the dark as data exist's supporting all sides of the debate.

What is a fact is in every country in Europe as well as Australia that has implemented heavy gun control laws has only shifted the market for those who wish to visit violence on others underground. The criminal demand for weaponry remains and that demand is met.

Only the law abiding are harmed, only now it is from both sides. Criminal predators and a government who has denied their citizens the right to self defense.

 

[davidsog]

So not a scientific study

That is the biggest obstacle in this debate. Lack of facts as to the sources of criminal logistics on weapon supply.

In light of that fact and until that study is conducted, I do not believe it is productive to engage in "my lack of data is more valid than your lack of data". Instead, concentrate on what we do know about the effects of draconian gun laws on crime.

 

[FAS1]

And why would that matter? Is the theft (of anything) somehow valid if the thief has to work harder?

Not a matter of validating how hard a thief works, rather the lack of many to secure their guns. I see stories locally all the time about thieves walking through neighborhoods and parking lots pulling on door handles. When a car is unlocked they see what they can steel.

A local news story a few years ago reported 18 UNLOCKED vehicles burglarized in one night in a prominent neighborhood. 3 firearms were stolen right there with no effort.

That's not to say the car owner is at fault for what a thief does, but we all know without taking deliberate steps to try to prevent it we would all be victims at some time or another. Locks, alarms, cameras, etc., all seem to be accepted realities if you don't want your stuff stolen. If you don't have some or all of those things your odds go up to be victimized.

With all these measures you are either simply buying time if the thief wants to work hard enough, but most will find the easier target. Personally, I want to make it as hard as possible so they move on to the easy target.

 

[USNRet93]

A local news story a few years ago reported 18 UNLOCKED vehicles burglarized in one night in a prominent neighborhood. 3 firearms were stolen right there with no effort.

I don't think keeping a firearm in a LOCKED car overnight is very smart, let alone an UNlocked one..
Some around here keep their car unlocked so some thief doesn't break something to get inside..BUT I certainly would make sure nothing 'important'(like a GUN???), wouldn't be inside.

 

[TBM900]

And if you dig in even deeper, you'll find that the originating source for the 'stolen firearm' category is actually either via a straw purchaser or a family member. In other words, the person caught with it during the crime, had stole it from someone else who had stolen it.

Leftists/media have many times over the years used the 'stolen firearm' data point to either blame law-abiding gun owners (failing to secure their guns) or to create laws to force law abiding gun owners into securing them (mandatory gun locks). But they only looked at where the end user sourced their firearm, not where it first originated and entered the market.

Which is almost always straw purchase or stolen from a family member.

 

[TDL]

more than half (56%) had either stolen it (6%), found it at the scene of the crime (7%), or obtained it off the street or from the underground market (43%). Most of the remainder (25%) had obtained it from a family member or friend, or as a gift.

Not only are likely most of the "remainder" straw purchases, it is entirely plausible a large number of the "stolen ones" are too.

The criminal who used the gun in the crime could be simply protecting the straw purchaser by saying they stole it.

I'd like to see how many follow on charges and convictions for more prison time on the "gun theft." otherwise I don't see why a criminal would be incentivized to tell the truth and implicate their girlfriend, aunt, brother, etc.