How can you shoot 1MOA @ 100 yards w/ open sights?

M

MountainGun44

New member
Another post prompted me to plea for help. I have perfect vision. I am a better than average rifleman/ pistolero. Why can't I shoot groups under 4-6 inches at 100 yards with standard dovetail open sights like all the gun writers do?

At that range I can't be sure I am aiming at exactly the same spot each time I fire.

I do just fine with aperature or "peep" sights as well as scopes, of course.

Help me.
 
Jeff Cooper once said that you dont even have to SEE your target, if you KNOW EXACTLY where it is.
This is true.
Quarter your target with the front sight. Basic shooting fundamentals come into play here. In fact, this is the test of a real rifleman.
Slow your breathing, and your pulse, concentrate on the sight picture, gently and firmly rollback on the trigger.
After the gun recoils... quarter the target again EXACTLY as you did the first time. DO everything all over again - exactly as you did before.
Consistancy is paramount.

If by chance you are doing your job... Everything correctly and your shotgroup isn't getting better: Sandbag the rifle as firmly as possible and fire for a group. You will see something here.
1. If the group is better - Keep practicing.
2. If the group is the same - Its time to start trying different brands off ammo.
3. If other ammo doesnt help:
Detail clean the gun... use Outers Foul Out to seriously clean that bore. Remove all copper and lead fouling that can impair accuracy... You may not be getting it out with just a bore brush. Also check the barrel's Crown - a mar there can throw a bullet off course. If its dinged - recrown it.
4. If #3 didn't help, Fire Lap the barrel.
5. If #4 didn't help, check the rifle's bedding, make sure its either bedded correctly - or fully free floating.

Accuracy is a process - sometimes it happens, sometimes you really have to work for it. All else fails, get a new rifle and try all over again.

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 30, 2000).]
 
George,

No offense, but I think that it would be prudent to try your step #5 before step #4.
Fire lapping is an irreversible remedy which may cause damage to a healthy bore.
I consider fire lapping to be the remedy of last resort before rebarreling.

MountainGun44,

Try using an NRA smallbore rifle target. Aim at the very bottom of the black circle. This should give you some consistancy in your point of aim.

You say that your groups are 4-6 inches. Is this a mostly vertical, or a horizontal spread? What kind of rifle are you shooting? What position are you shooting from? Are you using a sling?

------------------
Audemus jura nostra defendere
 
Two points.

One, I do not trust gun writers. I have seen many pics that were supposed to be "one inch groups" that looked way off, based on the proximity of the holes and the caliber.

Two, the real key is concentrating on the front sight. If you get a chance, Jeff Cooper's "Art of the Rifle" explains the process. Finding a high power shooter who can coach you would help immensely.

Personally, I don't do open sights at 100 as I can't get much under 4 - 6 inches either. IMHO, the rear sight is usually too big and the front sight is usually a bead. I much prefer a post.

Giz
 
Now we just have to admit it, gunwriters are superior human beings who can shoot smaller groups, never need a second shot, never met a rifle they couldn't love and leap tall buildings in a single bound. Put a cape on 'em and a pair of fancy tights and they will battle evil-doer's while whipping up the latest, greatest newest cartridge that you just can't live without (name after them of course).

As for shooting a one inch group with open dove tail sights, I couldn't tell you because I'm not a gunwriter. I have shot some in that range with apeture sights but not dovetails.
 
How can you shoot 1MOA @ 100 yards w/ open sights?
Verrrrry carefully. :D
Actually I HAVE done it but the sights have to be very good. I can do it with an HBAR AR15 with iron sights.
 
Has anyone esle read
Zen in the art of archery?

I have a hard time with paper target motivation, I get bored & sloppy.

I prefer reactive targets like clay pigeons
but it is hard to "group" on those!

dZ
 
The only repeatable MOA groups I've ever seen that were shot with irons were aperature rear/post front sights on match grade rifles. If you shoot enough you might "luck" into an MOA group every now and then but repeating it will be hard.

I have 20/15 vision with my contacts and regularly shoot at distances out to 300-400 yards (usually with scoped rifles). I also shoot lots of action pistol (IDPA) with open sights at short distance.

To shoot MOA groups with iron sights is EXCEEDINGLY difficult, even from sandbags, because the unaided human eye has a short focal length (only one thing can be in focus and that should be the front sight). You can cheat nature by using a pinhole aperature on your shooting glasses. I made my first pair by getting some dark flip-ups and drilling a small (perhaps 1/32") hole through the right lens at the most comfortable (pre-determined) location. Since then I have found some stick-on peeps that I now use. I keep one or two pairs of these glasses for sighting in pistols and rifles with iron sights (the location of the aperature is different for rifle and pistol). With this aperature properly sized, you can have both sights and the target all in sharp focus at the same time. It's just a little optical miracle!

Mikey
 
11xray - No offense taken. You are in fact correct. Firelapping is something you dont want to do very much and is best done AFTER you check the bedding.
Thank you for correcting me.
 
I have a friend of mine who can consistently shoot groups of 3" or less at 100 yds with a Marlin .30-30 with open sights...amazing consistency. This is the same fellow who I once witnessed put 9 out of 12 arrows (handmade) into a grass target 18" across at 125 yds. This guy is phenomenal with baseballs, too.... :)
 
Once, about twenty years ago at Coyote Point range in San Mateo California, I watched a Navy dentist put four rounds of 30-06 into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. Three of the holes were touching edges.
He walked up to the target, took a dime out of his pocket and layed it on the target, and said,
"Rats. I pulled one. That should of been a 3/8" group..."
The weapon?
A late 1943, off the shelf M1 Garand rifle with a two groove barrel. Courtesy of DCM.
Standard Garand sights.
No bedding or other tricks.
Ammo was his own handload of 150gr Sierra Matchkings with 50 grains of IMR 4064 behind them.

I would not have believed it possible if I had not witnessed it firsthand.
He and I were the only shooters there, so I know it wasn't a put up job by some wag with a scoped piece shooting the dentist's target.

BTW: that is still my favorite 30-06 load.
 
For me ita ll about breath control and buckhorn sights. I cannot shoot worth a damn with military "peep" sights.Getting rock steady and settling down.. timing your breathing etc its all possible.

I ALSO note that ANY shot NOT in the 1 inch group is considered a "flyer" and not a "flinch".

Some ammo is more accurate than others...

I shot some amazing 3/4 inch groups out of a 20 year old savage 110B with remington 150gr bronze points.

I shoot 1/2 groups consistantly with my savage 116

I still can't get better than 4" out of my remington made 1903a3.. but with better sights I'm SURE I could cut that group in half. Its a good shooter, and if it had buckhorn sights it would go to elk camp as a back-up gun.
 
MountainGun44 - I posted a similar topic several months ago. The thread is at: http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/002046.html

(Thank you TFL for keeping all posts available.) :)

I still can't do much better with my AR15, but have gotten under 3" with my Garand using Talon ammo. The rifle is capable of better than that and limited only by this shooter.

Practice, practice, practice.

Cliff
 
finally the very last post had the answer. Practice Practice Practice. Growing up I had a bengamin air rifle that I shot who knows how many boxes of pellets through it. I once shot a dove off a power line somewhere around 100 yards, with my first try. Think about something those writers have that probably most of us don't, unlimited time to spend at the range and get PAID doing it. Who wouldn't want that job. I get asked why do I shoot my deer rifle so much, cause I want to bond more closely with the rifle. JM2CW
 
The same way you get to Carnage Hall...... Practice! :)

But seriously folks, some good advice above, I would just add that you can vastly improve your open sight shooting by doing nothing else other than selecting the right target image. For me a 6" diameter jet black circle set against a white background is the perfect open sight target at 100 yds, about the same size as official Service Rifle targets for 100 yds open sight competition shooting.

I use MS Paintbrush to make the BMP and a LaserJet to print them out on standard typing paper. At 100 yds that 6" bull looks like a small dot setting perfectly atop my front sight. It makes a pretty decent target for handguns at 25 to 50 yds too. And "yes", it is possible to shoot the mythical 1" group with open sights, you just gotta shoot a whole bunch of 2" and 3" groups to get there. -- Kernel
 
Well I guess I need more practice. My most recent experience was with my Marlin 1894P, by the way. (.44 mag out of a 16.5 inch barrel.)

I am talking about shooting from sandbags at a range. I have a .22 that I shoot >1 inch at 100 yards- with a scope at 12X. I also have a .308 that I shoot under 1 inch (until the barrel heats up) with a 9X scope.

I am motivated to work harder by your replies. If you whacko gun-nuts can do it, so can I!

:-)
 
I have never achieved 1 inch w open sights. I have come close with my M1A , but only with decent ammo. I recently sighted in 2 guns for folks at the range that wanted some help. I was able to get just over an inch at 100 yds with a 338 win mag and a 3.5 X 10 scope ... and hit a 3/4 of an inch 5 shot group with a 70 classic in 300 win mag with a 14 X scope. I am new to using scopes and guess I need better sights on my guns to get better.
 
Aperture sights are not open sights. You guys with Garands, AR-15s, and late model 1903 Springfields do not have open sights. Aperture sights will allow shooting very nearly as well as a scope.

Barrel sights, AKA open sights, aren't as precise but with an accurate load and rifle will allow two inch or slightly smaller five shot groups from a benchrest. Use a fairly large bull, at least 5" at 100 yds, and focus on your front sight and hold six o'clock. Of course if the gun/load won't shoot well to begin with you will never get 2" out of it.

I play around with old military surplus rifles and amazed at how well some gun/load combinations will do since it doesn't seem like I am seeing the sights and target that well. I must be seeing them in a consistent relationship, though, and that is the key.
 
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