Limnophile
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I fail to see how the video is in any way relevant to the question posed.
How can a handgun compete with a man armed with a rifle?
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I fail to see how the video is in any way relevant to the question posed.
Being armed with a rifle certainly has it's advantages in combat, however, being bullet proof isn't one of them.
Being the first one to land your shots will go a long way towards winning the fight.
And as kraigwy said, surprise and violence of action will certainly help to swing the moment into your favor.
-Don't give warnings
-Don't expose yourself as armed until the last possible moment
-Don't stop at one or two shots, shoot him down and end the altercation
Being the first one to land your shots will go a long way towards winning the fight.
And as kraigwy said, surprise and violence of action will certainly help to swing the moment into your favor.
-Don't give warnings
-Don't expose yourself as armed until the last possible moment
-Don't stop at one or two shots, shoot him down and end the altercation
Deaf Smith
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In the 1850s Texas rangers in fights with Apaches used Colt Walker revolvers at ranges up to 600 yards.
Deaf
Deaf
Glenn E. Meyer
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Out near Rock Springs, we were plinking at some Clay pigeons at 100 yards. So I tried my 10/22 with iron sights. All around it - bah. Frustrated, I unholstered a Glock 26 - bang and it smoked. I found that I could hit a man sized target at 200 yards with a touch of practice with a Glock.
I used to compete in NRA Hunter Silhouette with pistols back in the 80's mostly. The Rams at 100yds were about 8 inches tall and maybe 12 inches long. If I did not hit 50% of those with a 5 inch 1911 with iron sights, standing off hand I was having a bad day, and my misses were not by much.
If you have a decent gun, with a decent trigger and sights, 100yds with a handgun is not that difficult.
If you have a decent gun, with a decent trigger and sights, 100yds with a handgun is not that difficult.
blue duck said:
Have you ever tried it while your target 100 yards away is shooting at you with a rifle? Makes it surprisingly more difficult. I had a rifle when I tried it and it was extremely difficult even with that.
I'm not a real bad shot with a 1911, about 50% on an 8" diameter gong at 100 yards. But you're talking about competing against someone with a rifle. My experience has been that rifle fire even by untrained shooters at 100 yards is IMMENSELY more accurate and intense than pistol fire, so I would rate it as more than EXTREMELY difficult with a pistol.
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here's how...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vEVhrK_0AE
I feel pretty sure that I could be armed with a full auto AR variant and a hat that shoots laser beams and some if not most of the guys on this forum could still take me out without too much trouble.
To paraphrase what someone said earlier, all things being equal a rifle may be better but not everyone has the same skill level so all things are rarely equal.
As for the folks who take people out at 75+ yards, that is unfathomable to me. I would probably have a hard time seeing that far much less hitting anything with a pistol.
Some people make it look easy though. I think I'm put here to be the guy on the range that provides encouragement - people can look at my targets and think "Bless his heart, at least I'm not as bad as THAT guy". But hey, I'm happy to help.
To paraphrase what someone said earlier, all things being equal a rifle may be better but not everyone has the same skill level so all things are rarely equal.
As for the folks who take people out at 75+ yards, that is unfathomable to me. I would probably have a hard time seeing that far much less hitting anything with a pistol.
Some people make it look easy though. I think I'm put here to be the guy on the range that provides encouragement - people can look at my targets and think "Bless his heart, at least I'm not as bad as THAT guy". But hey, I'm happy to help.
Depends on the fight. At typical active shooter distances the rifle loses some of it advantage for distance. In the type of situation we are discussing the tactics you use, your skill and your ability to keep a cool head under fire will help you prevail.
Alot also depends upon the skill level of the rifle shooter. You can use surprise and violence of action to take the initiative back.
Alot also depends upon the skill level of the rifle shooter. You can use surprise and violence of action to take the initiative back.
Locate the book "Fast & Fancy Pistol shooting"
by Ed. Mcgivern.
In the 20's he did .38Spl revolver shooting @ 200 yds, he indicated that you had a 50/50 chance ogf getting a good hit. When the .357Mag came out, he backed up to 600yds.
I have used my 1991A1 Colt for deer hunting back-up, when using my muzzle-loader durning regular firearm season, I fired couple magazines @ 100 yds on a 50yd slow-fire pistol target and was able to group seven rounds within the 9 ring, using the front sight BASE as aiming point [not the blade top].
It's possible it takes PRACTICE!!
by Ed. Mcgivern.
In the 20's he did .38Spl revolver shooting @ 200 yds, he indicated that you had a 50/50 chance ogf getting a good hit. When the .357Mag came out, he backed up to 600yds.
I have used my 1991A1 Colt for deer hunting back-up, when using my muzzle-loader durning regular firearm season, I fired couple magazines @ 100 yds on a 50yd slow-fire pistol target and was able to group seven rounds within the 9 ring, using the front sight BASE as aiming point [not the blade top].
It's possible it takes PRACTICE!!
45_auto said:
Ocraknife said:
Not very amazing. Pretty common with a little practice. Any serious Bullseye shooter would find it laughable. But to qualify that "50%", that's standing in the open, shooting a 1911 that I'm very familiar with (zeroed at 25 yards, using a sight picture with the second "ridge" of the front sight aligned with the top of the rear sight for 100 yard shots), on a known range I'm very familiar with, and taking lots of time between shots to concentrate on breathing, sight alignment, trigger press, etc.
I'm no where near competitive with the serious Bullseye shooters. And I'm using two hands while they're using only one. I do about the same 50% on the bullseye of an NRA 50 yard slow-fire pistol target with a 3.36" 10 ring. Out of 10 shots at 50 yards, five 10's, a couple of 9's (5.54" dia), a couple of 8's (8.00" dia), and probably a 7 (11.00" dia), means that I'd barely break into the "Expert" classification.
High Master ........................................................97.00 and above
Master ....................................................................95.00 to 96.99
Expert .....................................................................90.00 to 94.99
Sharpshooter ..........................................................85.00 to 89.99
Marksman .................................................................Below 85.00
Under incoming rifle fire while quickly ducking out from behind cover to take a shot? I'd consider myself lucky to get a hit on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood at 100 yards. In the same situation but with a rifle, I'd say that I'd have a decent chance of a hit with a snap shot on a man size target standing still in the open. I'd figure that the opposition could do about the same to me.
Hey, .45 AUTO, may I ask what sort of ammo you use to shoot at long distances? I recall that, if I pushed a 200gr. projectile as fast as possible (1000 f/s), using a max charge of Unique, I could hit MUCH better with that load, than with Ball or 230 LRN reloads. I'm sure that velocity was a factor, but I had to hold over the target with all loads I used.
I understand your point about engaging a target that can fire back. But if they know you're armed only with a pistol, and you start lobbing projectiles near them, that CANNOT enhance their morale and initiative. Secondly, ALL combat depends heavily on mind set, and the defender MUST endeavour to be
calmer, steadier, and more methodical than the aggressor. A tough order to fill, no doubt, but an ability to hit an 8" gong > 50% of the time DOES engender a certain amount of confidence. Remember, that thing about a shooter's accuracy going to hell when being shot at works on BOTH ends of the contest.
Perhaps, it but DOES belie the notion that a defender with a pistol is ontologically certain to lose to an aggressor with a rifle. Like Gretzky said, "You are guaranteed to not succeed at 100% of the shots you do not try."
And I question the "9 times out of 10" quantitation, especially if the aggressor must kill or take his opponent out of the fight, and the defender need only stop or discourage the rifleman from firing on him long enough for the defender to evade.
I understand your point about engaging a target that can fire back. But if they know you're armed only with a pistol, and you start lobbing projectiles near them, that CANNOT enhance their morale and initiative. Secondly, ALL combat depends heavily on mind set, and the defender MUST endeavour to be
calmer, steadier, and more methodical than the aggressor. A tough order to fill, no doubt, but an ability to hit an 8" gong > 50% of the time DOES engender a certain amount of confidence. Remember, that thing about a shooter's accuracy going to hell when being shot at works on BOTH ends of the contest.
Perhaps, it but DOES belie the notion that a defender with a pistol is ontologically certain to lose to an aggressor with a rifle. Like Gretzky said, "You are guaranteed to not succeed at 100% of the shots you do not try."
And I question the "9 times out of 10" quantitation, especially if the aggressor must kill or take his opponent out of the fight, and the defender need only stop or discourage the rifleman from firing on him long enough for the defender to evade.
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I use 230 grain cast lead bullets (latest batch was from Missouri Bullet Company) over 5.3 grains of Winchester 231. Muzzle velocity is about 830 FPS, drops about 16 inches at 100 yards when zeroed at 25 yards. Long range accuracy would undoubtedly be easier with lighter, faster bullets, but I typically carry 230 JHP's and prefer to practice with something at least close to what I carry. Carry ammo runs about 100 FPS faster, drops about 12" at 100 yards.
There's usually a few B27 targets on the 100 yard line at the range, aiming at the head with a normal sight picture drops the shots right into the chest area of the target.
As far as this thread goes, I believe that untrained people that have never had rifle fire directed towards them from 100 yards away are SEVERELY underestimating the effects on their accuracy. My last experience with incoming fire from 100 yards was a little over 40 years ago, but it was very memorable.
I watch new shooters with an AR or AK sit there and ring the 8" gongs at 100 yards almost effortlessly. Went shooting at a 75 yard range Sunday with my 11 year old granddaughter. Watched her take out 12 ballons about 6" in diameter stapled to the 75 yard frame in about 4 seconds with an AR.
Obviously the mind-set and training of the shooter are critical, but the advantages of a rifle over a pistol at 100 yards are a huge handicap to overcome.
Edit: There are some very good tactical reasons why the US Army considers the Maximum Effective Range of the M9 (Beretta 92) to be 50 yards, and the Maximum Effective Range of the M16 (AR15) to be 550 yards, even though I'm sure everyone on here is MUCH more highly trained than your typical 11B (infantryman).
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/m16a2-study-guide.shtml
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m9/m9-study-guide.shtml
There's usually a few B27 targets on the 100 yard line at the range, aiming at the head with a normal sight picture drops the shots right into the chest area of the target.
As far as this thread goes, I believe that untrained people that have never had rifle fire directed towards them from 100 yards away are SEVERELY underestimating the effects on their accuracy. My last experience with incoming fire from 100 yards was a little over 40 years ago, but it was very memorable.
I watch new shooters with an AR or AK sit there and ring the 8" gongs at 100 yards almost effortlessly. Went shooting at a 75 yard range Sunday with my 11 year old granddaughter. Watched her take out 12 ballons about 6" in diameter stapled to the 75 yard frame in about 4 seconds with an AR.
Obviously the mind-set and training of the shooter are critical, but the advantages of a rifle over a pistol at 100 yards are a huge handicap to overcome.
Edit: There are some very good tactical reasons why the US Army considers the Maximum Effective Range of the M9 (Beretta 92) to be 50 yards, and the Maximum Effective Range of the M16 (AR15) to be 550 yards, even though I'm sure everyone on here is MUCH more highly trained than your typical 11B (infantryman).
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/m16a2-study-guide.shtml
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m9/m9-study-guide.shtml
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