Jim Watson
New member
No. 1
Hotter loads in COLT SAA ?
- Thread starter Lavan
- Start date
603Country
New member
Guys, I do not remember what specific ammo it was, but it was suitable only for the strongest revolver actions, not for a SAA reproduction. I think it was a combination of what was on the box as to bullet weight and velocity that caught my eye. Far above what would be suitable for his gun. There was a good chance that the loads would have wrecked his revolver and possibly his hand, or worse.
I could not let him shoot those loads.
No insult intended, but if you need me to tell you what loads should not be fired in a SAA revolver, be very careful in the future.
My buddy had never fired the revolver and had no idea what was or was not safe in the gun. He got the factory loads from a long time friend that is an FFL dealer, so he had no reason to be not trusting of the rounds.
So, you guys ease up on giving me grief. All I did was try to protect my friend, and I was absolutely correct in my assessment and actions. It did not occur to me to have to tell a bunch of seemingly knowledgeable gun folk like you what might hurt you.
I could not let him shoot those loads.
No insult intended, but if you need me to tell you what loads should not be fired in a SAA revolver, be very careful in the future.
My buddy had never fired the revolver and had no idea what was or was not safe in the gun. He got the factory loads from a long time friend that is an FFL dealer, so he had no reason to be not trusting of the rounds.
So, you guys ease up on giving me grief. All I did was try to protect my friend, and I was absolutely correct in my assessment and actions. It did not occur to me to have to tell a bunch of seemingly knowledgeable gun folk like you what might hurt you.
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603Country
New member
I called my buddy, and he still had the box the ammo came in. It was Buffalo Bore, with a 325 gr bullet at 1325 fps. That’s what caught my eye. Would you shoot that in a SAA revolver?
Some folks would jump to conclusions and get all excited about a (gasp) 300 grain load.
They do not understand a 300 grain load with a proper powder charge will be just as safe as a 200 grain load in a SAA. Look in your load manual,choose the correct burn rate powder and recommended safe charge.
If the page,or chart,says "Ruger Only",believe it.
Boutique,special purpose ammo from outfits like Buffalo Bore is loaded to a variety of performance levels. Many of their loads are SAAMI spec for all guns,
I'm not checking the catalogue, but Buffalo Bore might very well sell a 300gr 45 Colt load suitable for a Colt SAA.
And Buffalo Bore sells "Ruger Only" loads,too.
The specifics matter,
No,I would not. It was a good call. But the 1325 fps mattered as much as the 325 gr. It could have been "850 fps for all moden firearms" with a 325gr bullet.
They do not understand a 300 grain load with a proper powder charge will be just as safe as a 200 grain load in a SAA. Look in your load manual,choose the correct burn rate powder and recommended safe charge.
If the page,or chart,says "Ruger Only",believe it.
Boutique,special purpose ammo from outfits like Buffalo Bore is loaded to a variety of performance levels. Many of their loads are SAAMI spec for all guns,
I'm not checking the catalogue, but Buffalo Bore might very well sell a 300gr 45 Colt load suitable for a Colt SAA.
And Buffalo Bore sells "Ruger Only" loads,too.
The specifics matter,
No,I would not. It was a good call. But the 1325 fps mattered as much as the 325 gr. It could have been "850 fps for all moden firearms" with a 325gr bullet.
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Thank you for being able to provide that information.
No, I would not shoot that ammo in an SAA, Colt, or any other "clone", and I'd bet that if you called Buffalo Bore, they would tell you that, too.
I don't shoot Buffalo Bore ammo, so I don't really have "a dog in the fight", but I have seen their stuff and know their policy and they seem quite responsible about their heavy loads, stating which guns they have tested their ammo in, and to consider any gun they have not tested to not be safe with their ammo.
The problem, and potential risk happens when some user is either unaware or choses to disregard their instructions. And sadly, despite warnings on the box, it does happen sometimes.
You made a good catch, quite possibly saving your friend from injury and gun damage. Apologies if I came across as a bit harsh, but this is the Internet and all kinds of things get said, and repeated without any real factual information, so we ask for as much actual info as we can get, to help determine real things, or people who are just blowing smoke.
The fact you came back with additional information gives you credibility, and to me, that does matter. Again thanks for the additional information, it clearly shows the friend who provided the ammo was ...shall we say...underinformed??
I'd say so. There is, currently, no SAAMI standard for .45 Colt+p, so any load any amount over the regular standard pressure (which is the black powder pressure level) from just over all the way to stupidly high, would technically be a +p load.
603Country
New member
I put all of the blame on my friend’s FFL buddy. That guy worries me with his lack of knowledge and careless attitude. My friend (neighbor) had the new revolver but no ammo, so he asked FFL guy if he could get him any ammo, and this hot stuff is what showed up. After disassembling the hot loads, I ordered some 250 gr lead projectiles and loading dies, and taught the neighbor how to reload. All is well now, but if I hadn’t invited the neighbor over to shoot on my not-fancy pistol range, I hate to think what might have happened.
I’ve been reloading for pistol and rifle for 40 years. Good to know I now have credibility.
I’ve been reloading for pistol and rifle for 40 years. Good to know I now have credibility.
ligonierbill
New member
One grain below Hodgdon's max H110 load will yield that velocity for a cast bullet from a 7 1/2" Blackhawk. Quickload is a good estimator, but you can't always duplicate everything in your input. A 300 gr JSP will run about 100 fps slower.
Hodgdon's (web) data for the 325/cast (7.25" barrel) tops out at 1,266fps/24gr/H110 @ 27,400CUP/psi*
If I extrapolate pressure (Velocity-cubed rule) for 1,325fps I get 32,000 CUP/psi
Before I go LABRADAR a 340gr/H110 series out of my own 3-screw Ruger, does anyone have any actual H110/Heavy data to compare?
* Note that SAAMI standards indicate 14K CUP = 14K PSI for the 45 Colt
** Note also, i've never heard of "+P" designation that actually doubles the SAAMI standard.
.
If I extrapolate pressure (Velocity-cubed rule) for 1,325fps I get 32,000 CUP/psi
Before I go LABRADAR a 340gr/H110 series out of my own 3-screw Ruger, does anyone have any actual H110/Heavy data to compare?
* Note that SAAMI standards indicate 14K CUP = 14K PSI for the 45 Colt
** Note also, i've never heard of "+P" designation that actually doubles the SAAMI standard.
.
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ligonierbill
New member
Ok, here is my actual data, all H110 CCI 350 COL 1.68 Cast Perfomance bullets:
325 23.0 1,346
335 23.0 1,294/23.5
360 19.5 1,172/19.1
By contrast, Speer's 300 gr JSP COL 1.64 goes "only " 1,254/11.1. These are all from my 7 1/2" Blackhawk.
325 23.0 1,346
335 23.0 1,294/23.5
360 19.5 1,172/19.1
By contrast, Speer's 300 gr JSP COL 1.64 goes "only " 1,254/11.1. These are all from my 7 1/2" Blackhawk.
ligonierbill
New member
Good luck. I have my own reasons for running these loads, but I do not encourage their use. If I were packing a single-action pistol in the field, it would probably be a 5 1/2" Blackhawk "Flattop" .44 Special loaded with 240 cast over Unique at slightly less than the "Skeeter" load. Very handy and plenty of punch. The same can be said for the SAA with standard 45 Colt loads.
Like many, I've multiple 45 Colts -- that original 7-1/2" 3-Screw was mainstay 50 years ago for California muledeer under 50 yards, the S&W#3 is just emotionally cool, but the Tier-II (New) Vaquero running the medium heavy RCBS 270 SAA the most natural feeling/best all-round balance (both gun & load)
(Like all Rugers these days, however, cylinders had to be opened up to .452)
(25 yds)
Note the impact/aimpoint difference shooting off-hand
(Like all Rugers these days, however, cylinders had to be opened up to .452)
(25 yds)
Note the impact/aimpoint difference shooting off-hand
jackmoser65
New member
Brian Pearce has written about this extensively. They're available as 45 convertibles so pretty much at post WWII SAA is going to be safe for 21kpsi handloads, if not 23kpsi. Also referred to as "Tier 2".
Tier 3 is Ruger only at 30kpsi.
Tier 4 is for Redhawks and custom five shots at +50kpsi.
The 325 grain BB load wouldn't "blow your hand off" but it shouldn't even fit the Colt cylinder. If the gun is good for 23kpsi, it's not going to become a grenade at 30kpsi.
Tier 3 is Ruger only at 30kpsi.
Tier 4 is for Redhawks and custom five shots at +50kpsi.
The 325 grain BB load wouldn't "blow your hand off" but it shouldn't even fit the Colt cylinder. If the gun is good for 23kpsi, it's not going to become a grenade at 30kpsi.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
The cylinder of a revolver is the pressure vessel, and ultimately, no matter how heavily the frame is built, it is the cylinder that must be able to take the pressure generated when a cartridge is fired.
Both of these revolvers are chambered for 45 Colt. Although the New Frontier at the top of this photo, and the Blackhawk at the bottom share many features, the cylinder of the Blackhawk is heftier.
In this photo the New Frontier cylinder is at the left, a 2nd Gen SAA cylinder is at the right (please forgive how messy it looks), and the Blackhawk cylinder is in the center. The New Frontier cylinder is 1.654 in diameter, the SAA cylinder is 1.652 in diameter. The Ruger cylinder 1.727 in diameter. Now notice how much steel there is between the chambers at their thinnest spots.
Because the Ruger cylinder is larger, the chambers were able to be spaced out a little bit further. They average about .060 between chambers at the thinnest point. The New Frontier cylinder is averaging only about .040 between chambers at their thinnest points, the SAA is averaging about .045 between chambers at their thinnest points. (Note: this particular New Frontier shipped in 1965, so it would qualify as a 2nd Gen Colt. The SAA in question shipped in 1973. The discrepancy in dimensions is fairly typical of Colts that shipped in different years.)
The other thing to be aware of is Colts have the cylinder locking slots directly in line with the center of the chambers, resulting in very little steel between the bottom of the slot and the chamber below. I do not have a number handy, but it is considerably less than .040. Indeed, when a cylinder fails, the failure usually starts at that thin spot under the slot and propagates forward and back from there.
Just like happened with this antique Merwin Hulbert cylinder.
Rugers on the other hand have the locking slot located slightly off center from the center of the chamber, to provide more steel between the bottom of the slot and the underlying chamber.
Bottom line: personally I would not subject a New Frontier to any more pressure than I would a Colt SAA. Personally, I am fine with the 14,000 PSI max recommended by SAAMI. Rugers are a different story, that is why many reloading manuals have "Ruger Only" loads. My old Speer manual has a section labeled 45 Colt for Ruger and Contender Only. Speer does not specify the Max pressure for these loads, they only say roughly between standard 45 Colt pressures and 44 Magnum pressures (36,000 psi Max). You can do the math.
The cylinder of a revolver is the pressure vessel, and ultimately, no matter how heavily the frame is built, it is the cylinder that must be able to take the pressure generated when a cartridge is fired.
Both of these revolvers are chambered for 45 Colt. Although the New Frontier at the top of this photo, and the Blackhawk at the bottom share many features, the cylinder of the Blackhawk is heftier.
In this photo the New Frontier cylinder is at the left, a 2nd Gen SAA cylinder is at the right (please forgive how messy it looks), and the Blackhawk cylinder is in the center. The New Frontier cylinder is 1.654 in diameter, the SAA cylinder is 1.652 in diameter. The Ruger cylinder 1.727 in diameter. Now notice how much steel there is between the chambers at their thinnest spots.
Because the Ruger cylinder is larger, the chambers were able to be spaced out a little bit further. They average about .060 between chambers at the thinnest point. The New Frontier cylinder is averaging only about .040 between chambers at their thinnest points, the SAA is averaging about .045 between chambers at their thinnest points. (Note: this particular New Frontier shipped in 1965, so it would qualify as a 2nd Gen Colt. The SAA in question shipped in 1973. The discrepancy in dimensions is fairly typical of Colts that shipped in different years.)
The other thing to be aware of is Colts have the cylinder locking slots directly in line with the center of the chambers, resulting in very little steel between the bottom of the slot and the chamber below. I do not have a number handy, but it is considerably less than .040. Indeed, when a cylinder fails, the failure usually starts at that thin spot under the slot and propagates forward and back from there.
Just like happened with this antique Merwin Hulbert cylinder.
Rugers on the other hand have the locking slot located slightly off center from the center of the chamber, to provide more steel between the bottom of the slot and the underlying chamber.
Bottom line: personally I would not subject a New Frontier to any more pressure than I would a Colt SAA. Personally, I am fine with the 14,000 PSI max recommended by SAAMI. Rugers are a different story, that is why many reloading manuals have "Ruger Only" loads. My old Speer manual has a section labeled 45 Colt for Ruger and Contender Only. Speer does not specify the Max pressure for these loads, they only say roughly between standard 45 Colt pressures and 44 Magnum pressures (36,000 psi Max). You can do the math.
Thanks! And yes, you did state you were going to stick to factory loads. What we try to accomplish with detailed discussions often giving "chapter and verse" information about why to do or not do a thing, is to inform all the readers of the thread of details they may not be aware of.
The way I see it, if just one person learns something, and doesn't do something they shouldn't because now they know better, we've done a good thing.
After all, we're doing it "for the children!"
