Hostage Situation

Are they still training to visualize a golfball between the earlobes on head shots to sever the brainstem for non-reflex shots?
Click to expand...

I am trained to use two classifications of shots. The first is the "surgical shot"; the second is center of mass of the exposed target.

The surgical shot's objective is flaccid relaxation; the instant shut down of the body so that a trigger cannot be pulled, a knife cannot be used, etc. And yes, there is a definite target area.
 
Just to clarify with kraigwy. Your addtion to my comment is correct for a trained individual. My comment was aimed at the average shooter and intended to prevent that person from being engaged and distracted by the same tactic that you suggested going the other way.
 
Relevant Tactics

Mobuck,
You make a great point here. I am not you nor am I kraigway. If your classification is either "trained individual" or "untrained individual" I for sure am in the untrained section. With that said I still beleive I could make the talking thing work out. I practiced it dry firing. Boy did my dog look at me weird while I was talking to a wall :).

My reasoning behind this type of training is simple. If god forbid someone was in my home and had a loved one hostage I would feel the need to act rather than back out.

I want to posess the physical ability to make that shot should the need present itself.

With that said can anyone coment on the decision making process that should be a part of this conversation? In other words what indicators should I look for in a BG who had someone hostage. Should I comply or not?

My current attitude towards this is simply that if someone has entered our home and is threatining to do harm to a family member there is no negociation and no alternitive.

Thoughts?
 
You want to convince the guy that you want to comply to his wishes (no means am I saying to comply).

Ask what he wants, ask how you can comply with his wishes. If the bandit thinks you are complying it may tend to relax him a bit.

I'm old school..........NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

I have these targets in my shop and house just for dry firing. Dry firing with a laser sights give you instant feed back.

BUT: Remember the four basic safety rules. When laying out your dry fire targets, take into account your back stop. Think about what you'll hit if you screw up and don't unload before dry firing.

As I said, I have targets in my house and in my shop. If I screw up, behind my targets is a hill. I just have to patch a 38 cal hole in my wall. Actually the target in my house is on my granddaughter's bedroom door. (Still a safe background if I screw up noting gets hurt but for patching little holes.)

I also have a window cut in my shop wall that over looks my pistol range so I can shoot in bad weather or test loads without having to go outside.

I often hang the hostage target in the window so I can practice inside my shop.

Here is the targets I use, you should be able to down load and print them out.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/100 Yard Hostage Target_1_.pdf

Like I mentioned earlier, to add stress superimpose a picture of your daughter or granddaughter on the good guy portion of the target. It will make you think.
 
Kraig

I hear you on the Never Give Up Your gun thing. I figure that if a person just wanted $ or things of value they wouldn't bother witha hostage of any sort. I could start with informing the BG that if they are looking for material items they will get no resistance from me.

Frankly I wouldn't be lying in this situation. If they are looking for material things they can all be replaced. I couldn't replace a loved one. We are a small household just she and I and a Dog. I would consider the dog to be a loved one too but I doubt there are many examples of Pooch hostages.

Any suggestions on reading material that might help me further here?

With Kind Regards, Vermonter
 
One trainer (Louis Awerbuck) I know uses this approach with students. It's a challenge... every time.

http://www.yfainc.com/mirage.html

trgt4.02.jpg


In 1989, YFA originated the Mirage Target System to try and address the problem of training on flat, stationary targets on the range and then facing 3-dimensional moving targets in the streets. Another purpose of designing this target was to make the shooter understand that he is responsible for the terminal resting place of projectiles and to concentrate on shot placement so as to be able to better judge whether an intended shot would be viable.

Originally, the system used flat or curved cardboard with targets that simulated a human form. It then evolved into a system which utilized 3-dimensional plastic humanoid-shaped targets on which clothing was draped in order to present a more realistic figure. We added the availability for the targets to simulate holding a hostage in front of them, and then the availability to have more than one target so as to better simulate a bystander problem.

Today, the system takes up to 6 humanoid targets, any one of - or up to four of - which can be set to move erratically. The configuration in the accompanying photographs show the middle target sliding between two others. This particular setup forces the student to take angles of fire and foreground and background problems into account. The target system is utilized in all YFA courses so that the student can put together many facets of the training he has received in a situation that is as close to a street problem as possible for range training.

Over a dozen years ago, YFA also pioneered the use of three-dimensional and negative paper and cardboard targets to "acclimatize" the trainee to the concept of defense against human adversary-shaped forms and finite shot placement.
 
In re"Giving up your gun, read"The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh. Hard to read, but excellent nonetheless.
 
Lee Lapin, . . . thanks for the post, . . . that looks like it could evolve into a fun and informative outing.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Since I'm not in LE, the only hostage I might realistically have to worry about would be my wife ... so ... we've worked on a code to help get us out of the situation. We've agreed that if I believe I can be successful, I'll call her by her middle name and she will immediately lift her legs, letting her weight pull her out of the BG's grasp while I have a clear shot at center mass ... there are obviously some problems with this, and we've worked on under what circumstances we might try it. Somebody addled on drugs or booze might be a good choice, where somebody who was sober and determined might not. Hostage situations are perhaps the most dire we might face and I feel if there's any possibility of success, it's worth taking the shot, with the alternative being the sure death or injury of both of us.

Just a thought ...
 
Its always nice to have a trained hostage. We always trained with a duress code to be used if taken hostage, usually you call your partner by your name, because sometimes an immediate reaction can end the situation safer. The trained hostage can help by placing their weight suddenly on the hostage taker, squirming, whatever to distract the hostage taker.

I have trained my wife, and also for her to close her eyes as I do not want for her eyes to be damaged by the flash or debris that comes out with the bullet.
 
Trained Hostage

That is fantastic. Hadn't even considered the possibility. I assume the only good tatic here would be to go dead weight?
 
yep.

Also the doctrine of ensuing the hostage takers do now escape and the hostages are expendable was military doctrine in the 70's and 80's when we were dealing with the red brigade.
 
Wow some great information here.

I come from the other side of the equasion. I'm a trained hostage negotiator. Kraigway is dead on the money with his comments. As far as a trained hostage?... I attended a course with a pretty young female officer from plainfield NJ. I wont mention her name in defference to her family, and survivors. It may have been a month or two later she was taken hostage by some deranged gunman and had a gun to her head. In the course we took we learned how a police hostage could communicate with brother officers and make action plans. I watched as she was sending all the signals. I could see the desperation in her face... She was signalling "I'm going to drop... shoot this M-F. But the negotiator held off and chose to talk to the perp who shot Officer P through the head. This whole thing played out on TV that night. Of course they edited out her death.

I guess the point of my story is this... In a hostage situation things are best left up to professionals. This is the Hostages best chance for survival. Hostage gaming is fine as well as fun. In a real situation a trained military, police, or citizen should be used. As well a hostage situation shooter should be trained as a hostage situation shooter. There is a difference.

P/S the police hostage negotiator in the above situation didnt have a clue.
 
you may want to seek out some tactical training instructors in your area. we have a few here. i only just recently learned about these, but plan to start taking classes as often as possible as well as getting back into martial arts. i've been out for about 3 years, though hold 4 blackbelts. i wish to continue with kung fu.

it centers me... and i feel that if i go back to that, i'd be less inclined to use my CCW unless i had literally no other choice.
 
I believe the odds of this situation occurring to me is about the same as winning the lottery, probably less so. I know of people who have won the lottery and have never heard of this happening in real life. Police may have to deal with it and i hope the 45 rounds they shot at the range last year pays off...
 
I just have Mrs Sport45 run around downrange with a cardboard cutout of a bad guy held behind her. She gets really upset if I hit her instead of the target. :rolleyes:

Just kidding, of course. I haven't graduated to tactical drills at the range. I just try to see how fast I can keep 3 to 5 rounds on a paper plate at 15 yards. I've watched IDPA matches and think that would be good training. Being a competition would add the adrenalin factor. Kind of like a HP rifle match.
 
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