Horrible Bore condition.

S

stubbicatt

New member
I am at a loss of where to start. I have an old Winchester with an atrocious bore. Rusty. Pitted. Heck, not even pits but little razor like rust flakes sticking up from the bore. As bad as I have ever seen. Gunsmith fired a couple of abrasive imbedded bullets to attempt to make it better.

Then I got to thinking... How well does it shoot "as is?"

I loaded up some ammo with cast bullets and a recipe that has always worked pretty well for me, and shot it for group, to see how it will do if given a chance. This thing will shoot!

I cannot explain how a cast bullet could survive its trip down that bore without coming out a 6.5 or 7mm diameter, let alone shoot good. Examination of bullet impact on paper targets shows a straight hole, no key holing, no tumbling, nothing like that.

As nasty as it is in that bore, no amount of cleaning and brushing seems to ever get a clean patch. I have used different solvents, but pretty much the same technique with rod, patches, and bronze brushes. Heck 10 to 15 strokes with a bronze brush and it is visually smaller than it started out. I suppose I could keep at it for hour after hour, but I am old, and that gets tiresome quickly, and I can no longer count on my next breath. I just doubt it will ever be "clean."

I am tempted to just leave it alone and shoot it. Heck, its not going to get any worse, I don't think? But the lessons imparted in my callow youth by my sainted grandfather tell me to not put it away "dirty."

I'm looking for ideas or suggestions how to address cleaning that bore? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Stubb
 
Last edited:
I think you already have it figured, Stubbi.

The rifle will never be new again. That it shoots as well as it does is remarkable. If you have given a good effort in cleaning then it's clean enough.

Sometimes the degradation of your brushes if bronze or brass after using ammonia solvents continues even when your not using the copper solvent. This happened to me, only it was a new rifle. A 300WBY Vanguard. I seemingly never could get it clean, but it sure would shoot. I switched to stainless jags, holders and stainless nylon brushes and it improved quite a bit.

You description of the bore. Are you looking at from chamber or crown? If it's chamber then a good chamber tool may help.

Life's too short to stress over this pal. Shoot and enjoy!
 
Shoot it.
Clean it as best you can.

Don't worry about any more than that.


I had a Yugo M24/47 Mauser with a bore that looked like a cratered lava flow. Nasty, nasty, nasty. And the rifling was barely present - and completely rounded over.


Yet... It was one of the best-shooting rifles I've ever owned. :rolleyes:
(I liked it so much, in fact, that when the action was destroyed, I went out of my way to save that "horrible" barrel.)
 
If you stayed after it and got it perfectly clean, you would probably have to shoot it a while before it returned to a "condition" where the rust was just full enough of fouling to let the bullet run right.
 
I think that is right. The bullets are filling up the pits. I have an Arisaka barrel recut to 6.5 Swedish like that. I could not even get a patch through it when I started. I put a stainless brush on a rod and used solvent and a drill until I could push a patch through it. It shot great and still does. Barrels with cut rifling can get into pretty ugly condition and still shoot well. I would just use as is, but that is me, not you.
 
Sorry for the oversight fellas, it is stamped 30WCF.

I wonder, does anybody make a chamber mop that will work? How would one get a mop into the chamber?

This old girl is really sweet. 26" octagonal barrel "rifle", not carbine. Such graceful lines, balances so nicely. Is very light (I generally prefer a heavier rifle for offhand shooting), and is such a joy to shoot. Added bonus is it will shoot well with this load.

Regards,
Stubb
 
I have a rifle like that, clean the bore and it looks terrible, shoot the rifle the bore looks great and the old rifle is accurate.
I don't concern myself with the bore condition anymore, I just shoot the old girl and enjoy it.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
 
Howdy

As I have posted elsewhere on this board, I often buy old firearms with pitted bores. Many of these firearms are from the Black Powder period, and they often have pitted bores. But as long as the rifling is still strong, they usually shoot fine.

I have only encountered one tired old bore that simply would not group well, a Winchester Model 1890 gallery rifle chambered for 22 Long. It probably had tens of thousands of rounds shot from it in its life as a gallery rifle. The bullets do not keyhole, but they also will not group very well.

But generally speaking, as long as the rifling is still strong, most of these guns will still put a bullet where I aim, if I do my job correctly.

Here are two photos down the bore of a Merwin Hulbert 44-40 made in the early 1880s. Typical pitting for an old gun, but the rifling is still strong, and it still shoots well.

pitted%20bore%2002_zps5e8jhlt7.jpg


pitted%20bore%2001_zpsrnyytkqt.jpg


To the OP, if it shoots as good as you say, leave it alone.
 
Guns are made to use, and eventually to wear out (whether through use or the results of aging or abuse & neglect). Enjoy it, maintain it as best you can, & try to finish wearing out that barrel.

At some point, if you have the desire you can make a project of it but there's nothing wrong with just using and enjoying a tool that works.
 
Just a thought but in a pitted bore, i see lead fouling as a good thing. Once it's pretty clean i would shoot it, then use cleaning patch with a solvent that will clean powder but not strip lead, no more brushing. Shoot, clean powder residue from bore, shoot again. Clean powder residue. Repeat. My thoughts here is that lead will probably be deposited in a more homogeneous way. Grinds off the bullet, and the heat and pressures that follow melt it into the pitting. Cleaning between firings makes lead get deposited on top of lead and steel rather than powder residue.
 
Never write a barrel off, until you see the group

Have a 17 Enfield )Winchester),bore looked pathertic but after plugging chamber and soaking overnight new bore brush and repeating three time the bore is GOOD looking and the groups are tight.

Have a post 64 M70 7mmMag, that shoot paper plate groups @ 50yds.

Finally, soft-seated a bullet and got the distance from diameter to case head, now I getting quarter size groups @ 100, the throat has more effect than bore condition.
 
Got a 1941 German K98 with a sewer pipe barrel, it has never come clean, just dirty patches.
That thing will shoot 3"-4" @ 100 with those poor military sights, so I just shoot and clean like regular, and stopped worrying about it.:D
 
Sure. Me.
It's not hard to do. Takes a bit of time, but it's fairly easy.

You drill out the old barrel. I do it in a double diameter fashion, making the chamber end larger than the bore of the barrel. I then run extra-fine threads into the chamber end.

Next thread the large end of the liner.

Now tin the inside of the rifle barrel and the outside of the liner and while both are hot, insert the liner into the bore and screw in the liner tight into the threads. The liner should be about 2"' longer than the barrel so you have 1" sticking out each side. Let it cool to room temp.

Now face off the liner at both ends and crown the muzzle. Then cut a new chamber in the breach end. I set the head-space at .005 for lever actions as a rule, but can go as tight as .002 for customers that reload their own ammo, and like longer brass life.

After all this you need to do any finish work you'd like, and then reassemble the rifle. Now it's barrel is like a brand new one (on the inside.)

I'd recommend taking your rifle to a good gunsmith in your area, and if none are experienced with lining, just take it to a good (GOOD!!) machinist and explain to him what I just explained to you. Any good machinist can set the liner up for the barrel. Tinning and screwing the two together is childs-play if the machine work is correctly. The bore should be .002" over the size of the liner, the shoulder should be machined at the same angle as the drill bit point, and the threads should be class 2. As long as the breach end is about 1" "too long' you need not worry about the placement of the shoulder much. You simply screw it in tight and it stops when it bottoms out. You need only turn it in to about 5 Ft. pounds of torque. A set of vice grips is just fine. The solder is what holds it in and the threads are to make sure it is tight and resistant to thrust in firing.

You could have a machinist do the turning, drilling and threading, do the joining yourself, and then you take the barrel to the gunsmith for the chamber work and the crown. All pretty easy if you know how and what to ask for.

This is the type of work we do when you need to restore an antique if there is a reason no to simply re-barrel it. It's easier and cheaper to re-barrel if the barrel is round, but on Octagon to Round barrels, or any antique barrel that you do not want to replace, a re-line is the way to go. It is best to line barrel that shoot cartridges which operate at 48,000 or less.

A 30-30 is fine.

I would not want to do this with a 270 or a 30-06, not that it would be unsafe, but accuracy would probably suffer because that much pressure may be enough to compress the solder a bit and allow the bore to loosen.

The old barrel has to surround the liner precisely, yet leave enough room to fit but only enough to fit. The solder needs to hold it in place, but it should be a steel to steel contact for strength. This means we have steel, solder and then steel again. In theory if the pressure is too high the liner would compress the solder as it expands just a bit. The old barrel held the pressure when it was new so it will hold now too, but if you expand the liner a bit the bore gets very slightly loose. (Again....in theory)

Now I do have a friend in Montana that did this job on a 1928 M54 Winchester in 30-06 and he said it came out fine, as good as new. He has fired the M54 over 100 rounds with its lined barrel, so maybe you can go with higher pressure cartridges, but I never have re-lined a rifle for a cartridge that runs higher then 48,000.

I would hesitate to do it myself for a paying customer. If such a job was done and the gun later shoot poorly, I bet I know who would get the blame. Maybe someday I'll do one for my own use and see.
So I simply never have done it.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Wyosmith. I appreciate all the information and the education.

So today I went to the range with MVA sights front and rear, shooting RCBS 180 grain cast bullets in the 30-30. Using the aperture sight insert in the front sight shot 10's and X's at 100 off a not very solid benchrest. Was a 5 shot group. Took awhile to get the front sight centered up in the dovetail for a good static windage adjustment. Once adjusted and elevation arrived at, I shot for group.

The target is the "Official 100 yard Smallbore Rifle Target" on which the 10 ring is right at 2". The group was tight in the 10 ring for the most part, with one shot touching the line between 10 and 9 rings. So nearly, but not quite, X ring accuracy.

This situation gives me a case of indigestion and indecision. The rifle shoots good, but that bore gives me the heebie jeebies every time I look at it. Near as I can tell it is the same barrel that came on the rifle in 1904. Would it be a shame to go thru the calisthenics of a reline to have it not shoot as well as it does now?

There is always the prospect of load development, as this is just an arbitrary load I cobbled together to get the rifle set up. The bullets weigh right at 190 grains lubed and checked, so I'm shooting 15 grains IMR 4227. I could slowly increase powder and see if it tends to group tighter, or maybe AA5744 or something like that. I just wonder with a scabby bore if load development isn't just a waste of lead and powder?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top