Home invasions by police. Smart idea?

There are two distinct issues here, as I see it.

1. Dynamic entry raids at homes where the folks inside are criminals and/or knowingly harbor criminals and their activities. Drug selling, gang members, theft rings, etc.

2. Errors in evidence or execution of the raid - such as getting information from a drug user without verification, using the addresses on false identification taken from a suspect, hitting WEST Pine street instead of EAST Pine street, etc.

In the first scenario, the folks inside may be known to be violent offenders or known to have/carry weapons. Evidence in the house is to be seized and people arrested. To prevent destruction of the evidence or resistance to arrest, the dynamic entry with many officers means that the bad guy almost certainly risks being shot if he resists with a weapon. Safety in numbers, supposedly, is the thinking here. Unfortunately, 10 cops all pumped up can (and have) shot the wrong folks, some of them youngsters confused by the chaos of the raid.

In the second scenario average citizens are suddenly confronted by armed men entering the home in a tumultuous manner, manhandling people and yelling. Citizens have been shot for merely appearing with a gun in hand or reaching for their home defense weapon. These citizens, in my view, have every right to resist unjustified entries by armed men into their homes, be the police or not. Of course, that's of little comfort when you're dead.

Are dynamic entries over-used or executed improperly? I think they probably are. And I think the mindset of LEOs is sometimes overly skewed, such as commanders insisting on a dynamic entry to arrest someone for a non-violent crime because there are 2 guns registered to him. Dynamic entry raids should be reserved for situations where there are no other viable options to obtain the evidence or persons sought.

With today's modern technology, and some proper discretion, there should be no reason for police to hit the wrong address. The officers obtaining the warrant are obligated to ensure the correct information and location are used, that the warrant thus obtained is correct and that team is properly briefed. Any errors on the part of the team should fall squarely on the officers involved and any approving command-level officers. When a PD errs and hits the wrong house under the guise of a faulty warrant or by human error, an attempt to justify the error by showing the residents possessed 2 grams of cocaine does not wash.

In a few of these situations police have charged residents with "resisting", assault and even attempted murder of a police officer. When the wrong location is entered, such charges, in my view, are the gravest abuse of power since the officers are not "covered" by the warrant and are violating the 4th Amendment. When citizens are killed as a result of these errors the agency involved must be held accountable, especially the initiating personnel and team leaders.
 
Cap'n Charlie,
I am not wanting to muddy the waters in a fine debate over a very pertinent subject, and Lord knows I do not have the experience some of you gentlemen do, but to this citizen, it seems that if law enforcement knows a subject is in a building, then why not lock the building down and wait. No electricity, no plumbing, no body goes in or out. If necessary, to avoid police overtime, simply erect a 16 foot chain link fence around the building with razor wire on top. then wait. Wait a month if necessary. A year if necessary. I believe that is a more acceptable option than burying husbands and fathers because of a gung-ho gotta get 'em now attitude.

I suppose if law enforcement has reason to believe a person is actively engaged in setting explosives in place to kill others, then a dynamic takedown is necessary. If they are simply gathering the materials to make the same explosives, the dynamic entry seems to be just a dramatic flourish to get on the news and garner more funds for neato equipment for the SWAT team.

On Dec. 13, 1987, in Ruston, Louisiana Lt. Jay Kavanaugh set a standard for negotiating and waiting out criminals, even violent criminals with hostages that is still held as an example to be followed by the FBI. Now the FBI is hardly an authority on all things, but I still think breaking down doors and storming a building in tactical gear because Tyrone might have some cocaine inside is over the top.

I'm not sure I understand why a Garner vs Tenn. situation is one where a wait them out stance might have been a better option. In fact it seems to be irrelevant.

TENNESSEE v. GARNER, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)
471 U.S. 1
Argued October 30, 1984
Decided March 27, 1985*
A Tennessee statute provides that if, after a police officer has given notice of an intent to arrest a criminal suspect, the suspect flees or forcibly resists, "the officer may use all the necessary means to effect the arrest." Acting under the authority of this statute, a Memphis police officer shot and killed appellee-respondent Garner's son as, after being told to halt, the son fled over a fence at night in the backyard of a house he was suspected of burglarizing. The officer used deadly force despite being "reasonably sure" the suspect was unarmed and thinking that he was 17 or 18 years old and of slight build. The father subsequently brought an action in Federal District Court, seeking damages under 42 U.S.C. 1983 for asserted violations of his son's constitutional rights. The District Court held that the statute and the officer's actions were constitutional. The Court of Appeals reversed.
Held:
The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22.

In a few of these situations police have charged residents with "resisting", assault and even attempted murder of a police officer. When the wrong location is entered, such charges, in my view, are the gravest abuse of power since the officers are not "covered" by the warrant and are violating the 4th Amendment. When citizens are killed as a result of these errors the agency involved must be held accountable, especially the initiating personnel and team leaders.
Cory Maye is on death row because of just such an event. He is not charged with attempted murder, but murder. All he wanted to do on the night in question was remain asleep until morning. He was not allowed to do so. Oops, it was just a mistake in the address..........and the dead cop was the Chief of Police's son...........and Cory was black..........in Mississippi.
 
"How does the person(s) inside the home know there is a warrant?"


If you're selling drugs, or hanging out with crimminals how could you not have an idea that there is a warrant for your arrest or the arrest of one of your friends? I know innocent until proven guilty etc., but if you're living a life of crime, hanging out with those living a life of crime you should expect to be arrested, detained or questioned at some point even if you were just hanging out with a low life. A no knock warrent isn't issued because you forgot to pay your $12 parking ticket. As breacher pointed out a dynamic entry isn't a home invasion, it's serving a legal document. Home invasion is a crime not involving a judge or police dept.
 
dynamic entry isn't a home invasion, it's serving a legal document. Home invasion is a crime not involving a judge or police dept.

When the dynamic entry happens on the WRONG ADDRESS, its a HOME INVASION.
 
If you're selling drugs, or hanging out with crimminals how could you not have an idea that there is a warrant for your arrest or the arrest of one of your friends?
Because in many cases the only crimes are the possession of the drugs themselves. No one should have to fear a SWAT team busting in their home for smoking pot. That's simply ridiculous.
 
In Tenn vs. Garner the Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to detain/seize an suspect who was unarmed and not a danger to the public with a bullet in the back. The Tenn law at that time allowed an officer to shoot a fleeing suspect. The court ruled that law was unconstitutional. The individual was deprieved of his contitutional rights.

so Im not sure what Tenn vs. Garner has to do with this.
 
Ah ,the old "Fleeing Felon" laws. You are making me miss the old days now. Say what you will about it ,but back in the day ,when those laws still existed ,you could walk through the South Bronx ,Harlem and Bed -Sty at 2am ,no worries. The mopes rarely shot at the Police either. That always resulted in a stop at the morgue. The times have changed. Regards 18DAI.
 
so Im not sure what Tenn vs. Garner has to do with this.
It's relevant because it not only established what the police can't do, it also established what they can do, i.e...

The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22.
I used that criteria to establish valid grounds for a dynamic entry and apprehension.

Redworm

Because in many cases the only crimes are the possession of the drugs themselves. No one should have to fear a SWAT team busting in their home for smoking pot. That's simply ridiculous.
For smoking, or even dealing pot? I wholeheartedly agree. But what about a meth lab? Let's make it worse; a meth lab in an apartment or duplex? There's a reason we go all out on the hazmat routine with meth labs; they're an explosion/fire waiting to happen, and the makers don't give one whit about the other residents of the complex. Can you honestly object to a dynamic entry to end a situation that puts multiple families at substantial risk?

XB

I am not wanting to muddy the waters in a fine debate over a very pertinent subject, and Lord knows I do not have the experience some of you gentlemen do, but to this citizen, it seems that if law enforcement knows a subject is in a building, then why not lock the building down and wait
Hell XB, these waters were muddier than the mighty Mississip before we came along :D. Why can't you wait 'em out? A lot of times you can, but see my meth lab example above, for those times you can't.

Here's my first hand account of one case where waiting them out was tried, and didn't work:

12/21/01, 12:36 PM. 39 yr. old Fiske Douglas, despondent over a divorce, barricaded himself in his apartment and called his ex, stating that he planned to commit suicide using a rifle.

The building is a high-rise apartment complex that houses mostly senior citizens, many of them with medical problems. We immediately established a command center and staging area, and evacuated all the residents of that floor, and the apartments directly above and below him.

A team of three trained hostage negotiators established contact and a dialog with Douglas, and confirmed both that he had a rifle and he intended suicide. Mental health professionals were brought in to assist the negotiators, and they advised the incident commander that they believed Douglas was serious about suicide. Negotiations continued for almost 8 hours, without success.

A serious, secondary problem began to develop. Some displaced residents needed access to meds and oxygen from their apartments. The pressure was on to end the situation.

Douglas was now highly intoxicated, assumably to build up the nerve to pull the trigger. The mental health people finally reported that they believed suicide to be imminent, and at 7:30 pm, we made the decision to execute a dynamic entry.

I was first in the door, and I was about 2 seconds too slow. With the muzzle pointed under his chin, he pulled the trigger while I was still about three feet away :( .

Were we right to force entry? Would he have actually done it if we hadn't? I got a confession to make fellas; that was over four years ago, and I still lie awake some nights and ask myself that. I think that all of us that were involved do.

Anyhow, this was an atypical example, but I think (hope) it shows that occasionally there is need for drastic actions.
 
"When the dynamic entry happens on the WRONG ADDRESS, its a HOME INVASION."


Sorry, but you're wrong. If they acted in good faith it's an unfortunate incident, tragic at best, but it's still is not a home invasion.


home invasion
n.

Burglary of a dwelling while the residents are at home.


I don't see anyone getting no knock warrants to bust someone for having one joint in an ash tray. They get no knock warrants for people dealing, having illegal weapons while dealing, for being a danger to themselves, the community and the officers. If you don't want the cops busting your doors and windows in don't deal drugs. I don't see the problem.
 
If they acted in good faith it's an unfortunate incident, tragic at best, but it's still is not a home invasion.

BS. If you are going to do a dynamic no knock ninja entry to a home, dont you think you would confirm the address, and then confirm it again. Color of Law is a good excuse to hide behind. The Feds rarely prosecute Title 18, USC, Section 242.

You are right of course. It is an unfortunate incident, tragic in most cases. Someone should be held responsible, and It should not be the citizen.
 
For smoking, or even dealing pot? I wholeheartedly agree. But what about a meth lab? Let's make it worse; a meth lab in an apartment or duplex? There's a reason we go all out on the hazmat routine with meth labs; they're an explosion/fire waiting to happen, and the makers don't give one whit about the other residents of the complex. Can you honestly object to a dynamic entry to end a situation that puts multiple families at substantial risk?
That I most certainly agree with. In that case it's an immediate danger to others.

But what's more effective at keeping people from getting killed by exploding meth labs: trying to close them all one by one or giving the production of the stuff to pharmaceutical companies who follow safety and health regulations making it cheaper and easier and safer for the meth addicts to get their fix?
 
"But what's more effective at keeping people from getting killed by exploding meth labs: trying to close them all one by one or giving the production of the stuff to pharmaceutical companies who follow safety and health regulations making it cheaper and easier and safer for the meth addicts to get their fix?"


So you're saying you're willing to pay the increased price for a bunch more drug addicts? The whole legalize it and and our crime rate will drop is bs. It would be a crime against humanity. We can't keep booze and cigarettes away from kids as it is and it's hard to keep the drugs away from them. Let's legalize it and make it glamorous for them. Maybe we can have some models and actors doing some meth commercials. How about a catchy slogan, Meth it's legal so just say yes:rolleyes: or maybe Don't worry you won't live long enough to worry about collapsed veins and rotten teeth.:barf:
 
So you're saying you're willing to pay the increased price for a bunch more drug addicts?
Kinda like how the stand-your-ground law in Florida caused the streets to run red with blood, eh?

The whole legalize it and and our crime rate will drop is bs. It would be a crime against humanity.
Can you provide me with a single example of how prohibition in the United States has ever reduced crime?
We can't keep booze and cigarettes away from kids as it is and it's hard to keep the drugs away from them.
If a parent doesn't have more influence on a child than the child's friends and "the media" then that parent has failed.
Let's legalize it and make it glamorous for them.
It's already glamourized by popular culture. Legalizing it will not glamorize it anymore than "legalizing" machine guns will glamorize murder.

Maybe we can have some models and actors doing some meth commercials. How about a catchy slogan, Meth it's legal so just say yes or maybe Don't worry you won't live long enough to worry about collapsed veins and rotten teeth.

Ever wonder why tobacco can no longer be advertised on television? Do you see commercials with models and actors pushing Vicodin and Morphine? Do you get giddy like every other American male watching the Super Bowl when Budweiser rolls out a new Clydesdales commercial?

Unless of course you're a saint that never touches alcohol, tobacco, and caffiene...



You seem very willing to pay for the "war on drugs" that has not helped in the least bit. Unless of course helping means allowing the federal government to abuse your rights, spend your money on useless endeavours, and make damn sure that gangs and organized crime have plenty of black market funds to rely on....
 
Guys, I normally wouldn't mention this so soon, but the "drugs: to legalize or not to legalize" topic is a hot potato, and always has been here at TFL. It's bound to derail the original topic, so how 'bout taking this to a new thread, and keeping this one on the topic of "home invasions by police", OK? ;)
 
On the subject of whether or not an entry into a mistaken address is or is not a home invasion......

That is very much the same as saying "Oh, I thought ths was a 55MPH zone." How about "I just got home from overseas and I'm used to driving on this side." The excuse and intent does not alter the facts of the incident.

If an enraged husband breaks down my door while under the mistaken impression that his wife is in my bed, and I shoot him as he enters my home, I am justified.

If a young thug puts on a hood and a SWAT shirt and breaks down my door intending to do me harm, and I shoot him as he enters my home, I am justified.

If a policeman breaks down my door while under the mistaken impression that he is at a drug dealer's home, and I shoot him as he enters my home, I am not justified.

Why is that?
 
If a policeman breaks down my door while under the mistaken impression that he is at a drug dealer's home, and I shoot him as he enters my home, I am not justified.

Why is that?

Some animals are more EQUAL than others.
 
Don, whats wrong with airing out the laundry. There may be a better aproche than the Rambo methode in some cases. just a thought :)
 
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