Home invasions by police. Smart idea?

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BerettaCougar

New member
I've read/heard/saw stories of police officers (local, state, federal) and bounty hunters doing these home invasions with warrants, SWAT styled, sometimes breaks into a gunfight.

I personally think that the home invasion tactic puts too many people at risk, sure the government wants that particular person, could be a suspect in a crime, or evading warrants...but invading a home, without eyes and ears inside is (once again IMO) stupid. All the training in the world isnt going to tell you where the booby traps are, or if the person inside is armed, or has a bomb strapped to his chest.

This is my untrained, uncertified opinion - Get the guy outside, while he/she is getting out or into their car, or mowing their lawn...something to catch them totally off gaurd and away from their own turf...one good idea I saw was the "Free vacation give away" bust, where they busted like 40 wanted people at once.

I dunno, I'm bored and want some discussion...

Your input?
 
I've read/heard/saw stories of police officers (local, state, federal) and bounty hunters doing these home invasions with warrants, SWAT styled, sometimes breaks into a gunfight.
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Then it would not be a home invasion. But a court-sanctioned entry.
 
Who said anythng about fascism, Jibjab? Again, we are talking about a SIGNED warrant as opposed to cops bashing into a house for NO reason. If that is fascism, you are in the wrong country.
 
you guys have lost it

time for a monitor to lock this puppy up. I would comment on the original question...but it seems too late.
 
How does the person(s) inside the home know there is a warrant? A home invasion is in the eye of the beholder.
Not real smart.
 
Locking this thread isn't necessary... yet.

IMO, the discussion should be centering on the following statements:
BerettaCougar said:
...the home invasion tactic puts too many people at risk...
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BerettaCougar said:
Get the guy outside, while he/she is getting out or into their car, or mowing their lawn...something to catch them totally off gaurd and away from their own turf.
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Let's concentrate on the inherent risk to both peace officers and the occupants of the house during a dynamic entry. (The difference between a dynamic entry and a home invasion is a search warrant. To the occupants of the home - there is no difference.)

I'd also like to see police opinions on taking a suspect off-guard away from their home.

My thanks to all in advance for turning around this discussion and keeping it on the high road. :)

-Dave
 
If you have a warrant ,and a high risk suspect ,and a location on him ,you go get him. Besides, those people don't mow their lawns. Regards 18DAI.
 
Well, this raises the question of the guy defending himself from the cops, not realizing that they're cops (I'm assuming there's absolutely no warning from police before entering)

Also something like the cops getting the wrong address and busting down joe schmoe's door while he tries to protect himself and someone or many people end up dead or wounded for nothing would be really bad. It's an unlikely scenario, but stranger things have happened.
 
This is my untrained, uncertified opinion - Get the guy outside, while he/she is getting out or into their car, or mowing their lawn...something to catch them totally off gaurd and away from their own turf...one good idea I saw was the "Free vacation give away" bust, where they busted like 40 wanted people at once.
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There are situations where this is the ideal solution, but there are others where that just won't fly. I've done my share of hard entries; they're dangerous as hell and they're certainly not fun. In spite of how carefully you plan, things can go south in a hurry when the unexpected rears its ugly head.

There are two kinds of search warrants: There's your standard knock and announce warrant, and then there's no-knocks. When you write either, the warrant must be accompanied by an affidavit, detailing your probable cause, the specific items or persons you're looking for, and most importantly for the purposes of this thread, a detailed description of the buildings/property to be searched. Simply putting 123 Main Street won't get it. You must list it in a manner that can't be mistaken, i.e., a 2 story yellow frame house with a red painted porch, for a rough example. The surrounding involved property, such as a separate garage, mailbox, and even garbage cans must be listed, if you intend to search it.

The requirements for a no-knock warrant are much tougher than those for a knock and announce warrant. You must show cause to a judge why sudden and violent entry is necessary, and the final call is made by the judge. In other words, the buck stops with him. In spite of that, though, the court, meaning the judge, prosecutor, etc., is immune from liability. Cops aren't.

For obvious reasons, I won't detail a lot of the tactics involved, but suffice it to say that we try to get detailed floor plans of target buildings, establish whether or not children are present, known weapons, and basically learn anything and everything we can about the people and property involved before we make entry.

Sadly, mistakes do happen. Sometimes the only info we have to go on comes from an informant, but given the probable thousands upon thousands of search warrants executed every day across the country, the percentage of mistakes is very small. But given the consequences of even one mistake, we go to great lengths to try to ensure that it doesn't happen.
 
One name. Cory Maye.

Cops mistakenly broke down the door of a sleeping man, late at night, as part of drug raid. Turns out, the man wasn't named in the warrant, and wasn't a suspect. The man, frightened for himself and his 18-month old daughter, fires at an intruder who jumps into his bedroom after the door's been kicked in. Turns out that the man, who is black, has killed the white son of the town's police chief. He's later convicted and sentenced to death by a white jury. The man has no criminal record, and police rather tellingly changed their story about drugs (rather, traces of drugs) in his possession at the time of the raid. Don't believe it? Do a Google search for Cory Maye.

Much like high speed pursuits on our highways, these types of arrests/entries, or whatever the name de jour is, are incredibly dangerous for both the police AND the public at large.

Can anyone say the benefits of unannounced entries outweigh the risks?
Can anyone say that stuffing Tyrone or Leroy in the back of a cruiser is more important than the life of a police officer or a private citizen?
No?
Then why not just wait the S.O.B. out?
Does overtime cost more than a human life or two?
 
Not to sidetrack the discussion, and Charlie? You know I hate to disagree with you, but... There is a third kind of warrant. That's the anticipatory warrant.

These are "issued" by a judge before probable cause has been established, mostly because the police or DA think that when a triggering event occurs, probable cause will then exist. See United States v. Grubbs, in which a pending case before the SCOTUS will decide if these warrants meet 4th amendment requirements and are therefore Constitutional.

N.B.: For clarity, it matters not whether these warrants are knock and enter or no-knock. They are a class by themselves.
 
Anticipatory warrants are warrants that are issued when probable cause is anticipated but does not yet exist. The idea is that some future event may happen, and when it happens, probable cause likely will then exist.

Pre crime warrants??? Man, The abuse can run rampant on this.

probable cause likely will then exist
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And is PC does not exist, what then. It the citizen let go? Compensated for time and trouble due to this fishing exersice not panning out?
 
...Charlie? You know I hate to disagree with you...
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Aw Al, you're no fun! :D

But quite frankly, I've never heard of an anticipatory warrant :confused: . I'll have to look into that one. I do know that no judge here would even consider signing one without solid probable cause, here & now. Even the most gung-ho cops I know would have a problem with a SW based on something that might happen.

XB

Can anyone say the benefits of unannounced entries outweigh the risks?
Can anyone say that stuffing Tyrone or Leroy in the back of a cruiser is more important than the life of a police officer or a private citizen?
No?
Then why not just wait the S.O.B. out?
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Undoubtedly, there are a lot of no-knocks executed for situations that could have been handled another way, by waiting them out, as you say. But some situations present themselves that leave no other options, those where Garner vs Tennessee would apply, for example, where the continued freedom of a person presents a clear and immediate threat to the lives of other citizens. Why not wait those out? Isolation, containment, and a greater ability to control the situation. Once that person leaves the confines of a building, there are too many variables that can occur. Foot pursuits ensue, people get into the line of fire or (God forbid) he takes a hostage, or (another God forbid) he makes it to a vehicle and a vehicle pursuit becomes necessary.

I will be the first to admit that hard entries are a less than ideal solution, but sometimes, they're the only solution.
 
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