Home invasion by cops?
- Thread starter Overhill
- Start date
What about this situation,
Happened to a co-worker/friend.
He's working off a cold and had taken some over the counter medicine that helped him sleep, after midnight he hears pounding on his bedroom door (door's locked) and sees lights shining through the gap at the bottom, he lives alone and no one should have been in his house.
In his stupor he walks to the door not fully comprehending what's going on and he hears "Police, Open the door", he opens the door and standing in his hallway with weapons drawn and lights on him are three cops, he's standing there in his underwear when they make him go prone and cuff him, when they cleared the house and found out he's the owner they asked him why did he call 911 and hung up? He tells them he didn't call.
He finds out that when they called back all they got was the noise of a fax line, he tells them the only land line to the house is the fax and he uses his cell phone for all other calls.
He told me that in his condition he completely forgot about his gun on the bedside and thinks that they would have shot him if he'd opened the bedroom door with a gun in his hand.
The police said they knocked on the front door and when they didn't get a response they walked around the house and forced the back door open to gain entry.
He decided not to pursue the actions of the police that night, he felt lucky enough not to have been shot.
Happened to a co-worker/friend.
He's working off a cold and had taken some over the counter medicine that helped him sleep, after midnight he hears pounding on his bedroom door (door's locked) and sees lights shining through the gap at the bottom, he lives alone and no one should have been in his house.
In his stupor he walks to the door not fully comprehending what's going on and he hears "Police, Open the door", he opens the door and standing in his hallway with weapons drawn and lights on him are three cops, he's standing there in his underwear when they make him go prone and cuff him, when they cleared the house and found out he's the owner they asked him why did he call 911 and hung up? He tells them he didn't call.
He finds out that when they called back all they got was the noise of a fax line, he tells them the only land line to the house is the fax and he uses his cell phone for all other calls.
He told me that in his condition he completely forgot about his gun on the bedside and thinks that they would have shot him if he'd opened the bedroom door with a gun in his hand.
The police said they knocked on the front door and when they didn't get a response they walked around the house and forced the back door open to gain entry.
He decided not to pursue the actions of the police that night, he felt lucky enough not to have been shot.
We've worked with SWAT, and one of their commanders offered the following about real vs. fake cops crashing your front door. This is something that has happened in Arizona lately. (either way, real cop or not, you have to decide what are the consequences if you 'chose wrong' with how you're going to respond)
In many jurisdictions, warrants can't be served late at night, which can be a big hint if they show up at 3 AM.
Real cops should have matching gear that looks high quality (vs. a $5 POLICE T-shirt) and a cheesy .25 cal saturday night special.
He noted he was not aware of any instances where real US cops carried AK-47's, a weapon some fake cops have used.
The SWAT guys will be virtually identically dressed with Kevlar helmets and $5K Motorola radios. Real cops serving a warrant will likely have sporadic traffic on their radio.
Additionally, real cops typically arrive in real cop cars, either themselves, or just in front of a traffic cop in a cruiser to dissuade onlookers from getting too close.
For non-high risk warrants that don't require the full SWAT team, you might have 2 or 3 SWAT guys serving it in something short of full battle gear.
Warrant servers have on occasion allowed the subject, often barricaded, to call 911 to verify they were real, generally in drug / kidnapping situations.
The challenge / potential downside is that unless you're really sure, I'd be very careful trying to kinetically challenge the intruders on very short notice. I would expect most TFL'ers could shoot better than the average street cop and certainly the average thug, but I expect few could out shoot the SWAT guys in a tactical situation of their choosing. May each of you never have to find out.
In many jurisdictions, warrants can't be served late at night, which can be a big hint if they show up at 3 AM.
Real cops should have matching gear that looks high quality (vs. a $5 POLICE T-shirt) and a cheesy .25 cal saturday night special.
He noted he was not aware of any instances where real US cops carried AK-47's, a weapon some fake cops have used.
The SWAT guys will be virtually identically dressed with Kevlar helmets and $5K Motorola radios. Real cops serving a warrant will likely have sporadic traffic on their radio.
Additionally, real cops typically arrive in real cop cars, either themselves, or just in front of a traffic cop in a cruiser to dissuade onlookers from getting too close.
For non-high risk warrants that don't require the full SWAT team, you might have 2 or 3 SWAT guys serving it in something short of full battle gear.
Warrant servers have on occasion allowed the subject, often barricaded, to call 911 to verify they were real, generally in drug / kidnapping situations.
The challenge / potential downside is that unless you're really sure, I'd be very careful trying to kinetically challenge the intruders on very short notice. I would expect most TFL'ers could shoot better than the average street cop and certainly the average thug, but I expect few could out shoot the SWAT guys in a tactical situation of their choosing. May each of you never have to find out.
Some of the things you've listed TXAZ might be be so easy to verify in a dynamic situation. Especially where taking a peek outside might work counter to the idea behind a cautionary glance.
The full tactical SWAT scenario is another moot point for reasons regarding when it's applicable. Few here would voice a concern for violent drug dealers accidentally getting shot when answering their door armed because they failed to realise it was a real police force knocking.
Now this main point might sound like a flame comment but the belief should always be, the police are on the backfoot.
If at times it means sometimes a police officer cannot mirror a citizens right to defend themselves in time (get off a shot despite being drawn) then that should be part of the job.
Yes, that is a very terrible thing to say. It does however stand to reason as reason (and the paper work that follows) distinguishes a vigilante from a police force. As do the greater numbers as the term force implies.
All of that should be part of the job. In turn it should mean that for the officers involved they should receive a greater amount of respect from the public for their service.
The point of this little sanctimonious sermon is simply that some police and the law makers behind them, have conveniently forgotten that. They have also forgotten the countless police officers that haven't forgotten this (some paying the ultimate price).
Getting to the point and it's this: Sometimes an officer might startle someone in their own home who is armed and then suffers an injury or death. That might be a tragedy if the address wasn't the right one, but that should be the risk of the job. That should be the direction events flow in.
As the saying goes citizens shouldn't be afraid of their governments etc. The little addition to that would be citizens should also become grateful for governments.
All imho.
The full tactical SWAT scenario is another moot point for reasons regarding when it's applicable. Few here would voice a concern for violent drug dealers accidentally getting shot when answering their door armed because they failed to realise it was a real police force knocking.
Now this main point might sound like a flame comment but the belief should always be, the police are on the backfoot.
If at times it means sometimes a police officer cannot mirror a citizens right to defend themselves in time (get off a shot despite being drawn) then that should be part of the job.
Yes, that is a very terrible thing to say. It does however stand to reason as reason (and the paper work that follows) distinguishes a vigilante from a police force. As do the greater numbers as the term force implies.
All of that should be part of the job. In turn it should mean that for the officers involved they should receive a greater amount of respect from the public for their service.
The point of this little sanctimonious sermon is simply that some police and the law makers behind them, have conveniently forgotten that. They have also forgotten the countless police officers that haven't forgotten this (some paying the ultimate price).
Getting to the point and it's this: Sometimes an officer might startle someone in their own home who is armed and then suffers an injury or death. That might be a tragedy if the address wasn't the right one, but that should be the risk of the job. That should be the direction events flow in.
As the saying goes citizens shouldn't be afraid of their governments etc. The little addition to that would be citizens should also become grateful for governments.
All imho.
Shoot the cops? Great plan of action. Thanks for sharing. Next time be sure to compete the circle by including the expected response to that.
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As for what to do should the police make a dynamic entry into your home, presumably because they believe they should be doing so, mistaken or not? Remember, we're talking about people that you believe to be the police. There's really no good advice to offer other than to comply at that point.
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As for what to do should the police make a dynamic entry into your home, presumably because they believe they should be doing so, mistaken or not? Remember, we're talking about people that you believe to be the police. There's really no good advice to offer other than to comply at that point.
BigBob3006
New member
Overhill,
I know the answer to one problem. If you keep a sidearm for defence, it's not worth a dime sitting on top of a closet shelf. I can't give you an answer that might fit you states laws. I'm pretty much confined to a power chair or my recliner. As such any child with a wet noodle could get away with any thing they wanted to. The only thing that would prevent it is my young spirit, my poor sleeping hours and my Colt Combat Commander in a .45 ACP. The one in the spout and seven in an eight magazine that reside in the butt of the grip might offer some punctuation as well. Home invasion is becoming a quickly climbing crime statistic. You ignore that fact at your peril.
I have decided on a course of action for myself.
At the first hint of trouble Mr. Colt comes to hand. If I don't hear someone outside yelling police, I shoot at the first thing through the door. If I do hear the word police, I yell back I have a gun. During this time my wife, Kathy, has been calling 911. When they answer we tell them what is happening and ask if the people at the door are police and if not send help, if they are police I notify those outside that they have been vouched for, and to come on in, and place the Colt on the floor. This may not be the best way to handle the problem, but it is the best that I can come up with
As I said this may or may not work by your law. I'm not 100% sure it will work by New Mexico law, but it's the best I can think of where everyone goes home at night.
I know the answer to one problem. If you keep a sidearm for defence, it's not worth a dime sitting on top of a closet shelf. I can't give you an answer that might fit you states laws. I'm pretty much confined to a power chair or my recliner. As such any child with a wet noodle could get away with any thing they wanted to. The only thing that would prevent it is my young spirit, my poor sleeping hours and my Colt Combat Commander in a .45 ACP. The one in the spout and seven in an eight magazine that reside in the butt of the grip might offer some punctuation as well. Home invasion is becoming a quickly climbing crime statistic. You ignore that fact at your peril.
I have decided on a course of action for myself.
At the first hint of trouble Mr. Colt comes to hand. If I don't hear someone outside yelling police, I shoot at the first thing through the door. If I do hear the word police, I yell back I have a gun. During this time my wife, Kathy, has been calling 911. When they answer we tell them what is happening and ask if the people at the door are police and if not send help, if they are police I notify those outside that they have been vouched for, and to come on in, and place the Colt on the floor. This may not be the best way to handle the problem, but it is the best that I can come up with
As I said this may or may not work by your law. I'm not 100% sure it will work by New Mexico law, but it's the best I can think of where everyone goes home at night.
If your residence is the target of a search/arrest warrant, you don't get a chance to inspect the paperwork and decide whether or not it meets your standards and you want to cooperate.
You'll be handcuffed and sitting or lying down while they do what they're going to do and afterwards if you think it wasn't right you can file a complaint/civil rights suit/motion to suppress.
Wondering if Erik's response is directed at mine? Or was the order the message contribution appeared of no significance. If it isn't, then obviously ignore the following.
In case it was was, simply put better to get a shot off at someone you don't believe to be police than (as others here noted) to find out too late it isn't. The part concerning how police need to be reactive should extend to the system behind them. Namely the courts, which means they should investigate as thoroughly as they can as to whether correct procedure was observed. If the police identified themselves correctly etc.
Few videos out there which even show people with weaponary like sports equipment, getting shot. For a couple of those videos it just appears the police didn't take the due care identifying themselves given the condition of the householder. Certainly under the conditions (drowsy householder at a distance to police) the police over-reacted.
Yes, some innocent people might get shot or even die as the police then return fire on a householder thinking they're armed invaders. That should be everyone's personal decision to return fire or not.
Intersting story regarding the L.A riots, when National Guard soldiers fired on a homeowner who thought it was rioters pretending to police. Suffice to say, when an m-60 fires on your house, you know who it is and surrender.
In case it was was, simply put better to get a shot off at someone you don't believe to be police than (as others here noted) to find out too late it isn't. The part concerning how police need to be reactive should extend to the system behind them. Namely the courts, which means they should investigate as thoroughly as they can as to whether correct procedure was observed. If the police identified themselves correctly etc.
Few videos out there which even show people with weaponary like sports equipment, getting shot. For a couple of those videos it just appears the police didn't take the due care identifying themselves given the condition of the householder. Certainly under the conditions (drowsy householder at a distance to police) the police over-reacted.
Yes, some innocent people might get shot or even die as the police then return fire on a householder thinking they're armed invaders. That should be everyone's personal decision to return fire or not.
Intersting story regarding the L.A riots, when National Guard soldiers fired on a homeowner who thought it was rioters pretending to police. Suffice to say, when an m-60 fires on your house, you know who it is and surrender.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
No, we are not talking about people I believe to be the police. The talk would be about shooting intruders.
Now if you are going up against the folks like TXAZ describes, it might be a losing proposition either way. If you are going against the OP's setup, that is another story.
Police have been shot during mistaken home invasions and homeowners have been cleared of wrong doing as a result, though nobody is happy.
SWAT may be good shots, but when they screw up, they often screw up on a very grand scale.
Original incorrect report from right after the event...
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/072101/loc_0721010012.shtml
Apparently 369 rounds were fired.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75603
Good shots? Great shots, usually. Here, less than 1% hit human targets and none of the human targets were intentional hits. The barricaded guy was apparently hit while hiding in a closet, totally unseen. One officer killed, one wounded.
So fighting SWAT could result in fighting heavy intentional fire or heavy confused fire. Both would be bad.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
I have been awakened by my door flying in, and several shotgun barrels in my face literaly. Police task force raided the wrong apartment complex. They were apologetic, and had a city handyman fix my door. It did scare the crap out of me. I had no time to react when they came in. I lived in a small studio apartment of a 4 plex. They did get the suapect they were after in the 4 plex across the street. I was not too happy. My apartment number was on the door.
Yes it does happen. Cops make mistakes about adresses. The thing is they are trying to use speed to keep the element of surprise, and usualy the officer, or informant that the info came from are not with the inital entry team so it is not that difficult in the heat of the moment to force entry into the wrong house, especialy if it is an aparment, duplex, or 4plex.
Yes it does happen. Cops make mistakes about adresses. The thing is they are trying to use speed to keep the element of surprise, and usualy the officer, or informant that the info came from are not with the inital entry team so it is not that difficult in the heat of the moment to force entry into the wrong house, especialy if it is an aparment, duplex, or 4plex.
Wildalaska
Moderator
I'd be better off wearing a lightning rod on my head than worrying about stuff like this.
WilddynamicentryindeedAlaska ™©2002-2011
WilddynamicentryindeedAlaska ™©2002-2011
Exactly.
I have no reasonable expectation of such happening to me in my home.
Therefore I will respond as if it's a lethal threat, which if it is an actual law enforcement entry in to my home, it will get very bad for me in very short order. In short, I will probably be dead.
As they say, that's life. My family may be able to pick up the pieces and move on, with a nice compensation check, but I will be dead and buried. I only hope that, law enforcement or not, if you attack my home through error, I take a few illegal entrants, or what I presume to be illegal entrants in to my home, with me to the gates of Hell.
Biker
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Oh, I dont know..... Ive been watching that Alska State Trooper show on National Geo, and they way they show it, all yall up there in Alaska are just a bunch of drunks wandering around in the wilderness in their unides.
Put your beer down and get some trousers on, your hair is looking like the static electricity is powering up!
Wildalaska
Moderator
Real men wear thongs in bear country...look at the rest of ya, what do you have, enraged chipmunks and groundhogs
WildsirgruntsalotAlaska ™©2002-2011
About 12 or 15 years ago, my condo was broken into while I was in my home office. I heard some noise and started towards the front door. At first I thought it was maintenance coming to do some work until I saw two guys with guns. Because of circumstances that would take too long to explain here, they probably thought I was not at home and they were surprised as I was. The results of their surprise was a volley of bullets, some of which hit me while I was running down the hallway heading back for my home office. To make a long story short, I played dead while they quickly grabbed valuable art work and some electronics. I was bleeding profusely and struggling to maintain consciousness. When I heard them leave, I found the telephone and called 911. I had the telephone in my hand, made my way to the front door and locked it, hoping the police would arrive before the crooks came back for any more stuff. The dispatcher told me the police were at my front door so I opened it only to be looking down the barrels of six Glocks pointed at me. Not a good night but I'm here to tell the tale. What lessons did I learn. All the doors and windows stay locked with deadbolts engaged at all times. I have a super-duper alarm system installed in my house...I moved out of the condo. I have a four-legged early warning system. I have a gun on me 24/7 except when in the shower and when I sleep, its on the nightstand next to the bed. There is a gun hidden in every room of the house. I was not married at the time of the shooting but I am now. My wife knows never to open the door until we are 100% satisfied that we know who/what is on the other side.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Given that Alaska has about the least number of lightning strikes of any state in the US despite its grand size, I think I would be comfortable wearing a lighting rod on my head there too instead of worrying about SWAT coming in my door.
Then again, I worry more about chickweed infesting my lawn more than I do about SWAT infesting my house.