Home Invasion Aftermath Scenario Question?
- Thread starter Blue Duck
- Start date
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Then he will be in a pickle.kinggabby said:
If someone uses his gun in what he believes to have been self defense, he will be well advised to have legal counsel. If he winds up arrested and can't afford a lawyer, a public defender will usually be appointed for him. In general public defenders are conscientious lawyers, but they also tend to be overworked lawyers.
Private counsel earlier in the process is more desirable. But that can cost a lot of money.
Jeff22 -- Nice synopsis of a complex subject.
Crazy88 - Yes, I could have probably worded it better. The primary point remains that you should avoid making a statement that "I shot him" or the like. It's better to simply ignore the dispatcher's question of "who shot the man who'd bleeding?" by telling them your description so the arriving officers can recognize you as the reporting party.
pjp74 - I disagree with your instructor's suggestion to hang up. Keeping the phone line open in case the perp has a partner you suddenly have to deal with - or if you see/hear him leaving, you can notify arriving police.
All of the advice about a brief, succinct synopsis is correct. It's normal for any "civilian" to still be frightened, scared, nervous and shaky in the aftermath of a life-threatening situation. Remember you do not have to answer every question they ask you. And sometimes your correct answer may be "I don't know right now, I'm still scared (or shaking, or it happened so fast, it's a blur)." Cops know that it may take you some time to calm down and have a clear recollection. It's especially true about time & distances because the adrenaline rush may distort your perceptions. If you give a basic statement and then tell them "Before I say much more, I'd like to talk to my lawyer."
Attorneys: I believe the NRA has a legal referral system. But the time to use it is well before you need it. Find a recommended local lawyer and talk to him/her for 30 minutes. Ask questions about how they operate and the resources they have. If you're comfortable with the lawyer, keep several of their cards in your wallet (and spouse's wallet). You want a lawyer who has handled firearms law and self-defense cases.
Crazy88 - Yes, I could have probably worded it better. The primary point remains that you should avoid making a statement that "I shot him" or the like. It's better to simply ignore the dispatcher's question of "who shot the man who'd bleeding?" by telling them your description so the arriving officers can recognize you as the reporting party.
pjp74 - I disagree with your instructor's suggestion to hang up. Keeping the phone line open in case the perp has a partner you suddenly have to deal with - or if you see/hear him leaving, you can notify arriving police.
All of the advice about a brief, succinct synopsis is correct. It's normal for any "civilian" to still be frightened, scared, nervous and shaky in the aftermath of a life-threatening situation. Remember you do not have to answer every question they ask you. And sometimes your correct answer may be "I don't know right now, I'm still scared (or shaking, or it happened so fast, it's a blur)." Cops know that it may take you some time to calm down and have a clear recollection. It's especially true about time & distances because the adrenaline rush may distort your perceptions. If you give a basic statement and then tell them "Before I say much more, I'd like to talk to my lawyer."
Attorneys: I believe the NRA has a legal referral system. But the time to use it is well before you need it. Find a recommended local lawyer and talk to him/her for 30 minutes. Ask questions about how they operate and the resources they have. If you're comfortable with the lawyer, keep several of their cards in your wallet (and spouse's wallet). You want a lawyer who has handled firearms law and self-defense cases.
Who says that elected officials will side with popular opinion? It's more likely that they will campaign on popular issues, but have a draconian attitude towards civilian gun ownership. Their "tough on crime" message can very well disguise an anti-gun attitude, even when the use is legally justified. This is more common in large cities in places like the northeast (NY, Philly, Boston, etc.) and the Left Coast (LA, SF, Seattle, etc).joneeman said:
So, what happens? There are some good posts here that cover the subject well.
I'll tell you this: The call we receive from dispatch usually gives us a decent idea of what we're headed in to.
What do you do? As has been mentioned before, make sure you are not in danger. Do not put yourself in the position where the perp can get to your firearm.
If you can call from a cell phone and can be outside in plain view, while you are keeping an eye on the person who got shot, so much the better.
When we come up, if we see you, the good guy, standing outside with your hands empty, our approach will be as low key as possible. If we do NOT see you, hopefully you're still on the phone with Dispatch, and you can assure them that you're OK.
If you are NOT on the phone--and we cannot see you--then we (knowing that shots have been fired already) will be entering the home with the possibility in our minds that you might be in danger, from a possibly armed criminal in your home. Thus, we will clear the house.
I have mentioned this to make sure that there is no mistake that the BEST way for the police to contact you in this case is with you in the open, and with empty hands.
I will also say this much: When we arrive, the only thing we know is that someone has been shot, possibly killed; you are the one who did the shooting, and that you have access to a firearm. The pieces of the puzzle we can put together from that point may make the difference between you going to jail that night, or not. If it is a VERY clear cut case of self defense, then there is a good chance that you will not be arrested or detained.
Understand that we know full well that you have the right to remain silent, and the right to consult with counsel.
However, let me paint a scenario for you. In this example, I have received a call of shots fired at your residence. I arrive (with plenty of backup), and see you standing on your porch--or seated. Lying out of your reach is a firearm. I will secure the firearm, ask you to stay put with another officer, and we will take a look at the person who got shot. Aid will be summoned, as well as my supervisor.
I will approach you, and ask if you're hurt in any way. I'll ask if you need medical attention as well for any reason.
If you're OK at that point, I will then read the "Miranda" admonishment to you before you say ANYTHING.
If you decide after hearing the admonishment to fill in some of the blanks, and summarize what happened, that's fine. If not ("Officer, I'd like to consult an attorney before I say anything") then that's OK as well.
Understand this well: there is a good chance that you will be detained on suspicion of manslaughter, however it goes. Our place is not to determine guilt or innocence; once probable cause has been established, we deliver you to the trier of fact (the Court) who will make the determination.
There is one other thing to be well aware of: You can be cleared of criminal charges--but the CIVIL trial will almost surely follow.
I'll tell you this: The call we receive from dispatch usually gives us a decent idea of what we're headed in to.
What do you do? As has been mentioned before, make sure you are not in danger. Do not put yourself in the position where the perp can get to your firearm.
If you can call from a cell phone and can be outside in plain view, while you are keeping an eye on the person who got shot, so much the better.
When we come up, if we see you, the good guy, standing outside with your hands empty, our approach will be as low key as possible. If we do NOT see you, hopefully you're still on the phone with Dispatch, and you can assure them that you're OK.
If you are NOT on the phone--and we cannot see you--then we (knowing that shots have been fired already) will be entering the home with the possibility in our minds that you might be in danger, from a possibly armed criminal in your home. Thus, we will clear the house.
I have mentioned this to make sure that there is no mistake that the BEST way for the police to contact you in this case is with you in the open, and with empty hands.
I will also say this much: When we arrive, the only thing we know is that someone has been shot, possibly killed; you are the one who did the shooting, and that you have access to a firearm. The pieces of the puzzle we can put together from that point may make the difference between you going to jail that night, or not. If it is a VERY clear cut case of self defense, then there is a good chance that you will not be arrested or detained.
Understand that we know full well that you have the right to remain silent, and the right to consult with counsel.
However, let me paint a scenario for you. In this example, I have received a call of shots fired at your residence. I arrive (with plenty of backup), and see you standing on your porch--or seated. Lying out of your reach is a firearm. I will secure the firearm, ask you to stay put with another officer, and we will take a look at the person who got shot. Aid will be summoned, as well as my supervisor.
I will approach you, and ask if you're hurt in any way. I'll ask if you need medical attention as well for any reason.
If you're OK at that point, I will then read the "Miranda" admonishment to you before you say ANYTHING.
If you decide after hearing the admonishment to fill in some of the blanks, and summarize what happened, that's fine. If not ("Officer, I'd like to consult an attorney before I say anything") then that's OK as well.
Understand this well: there is a good chance that you will be detained on suspicion of manslaughter, however it goes. Our place is not to determine guilt or innocence; once probable cause has been established, we deliver you to the trier of fact (the Court) who will make the determination.
There is one other thing to be well aware of: You can be cleared of criminal charges--but the CIVIL trial will almost surely follow.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
This is one of those 'What do I do if the sky falls' questions. I didn't read most of the responses as (no offense meant) they come from people whose knowledge in this area comes from watching TV. Some I did read were wayyyy off the mark.
However, your post-shooting response needs to be divided into two parts: pre-police arrival and post-police arrival.
Pre-Police Arrival
1. Give the Dispatcher enough information to have adequate resources respond (multiple patrolmen, supervisor, and ambulance) and can readily find your house and hopefully ID the BG's car and grab any accomplices. The situation inside the house also needs to be explained so responders know what to expect as the scene might not be secure (BGs still kicking, some on the loose, house occupants panicking, etc) .
2. Continue to protect yourself as the BG might get up or there may well be a second one who comes looking for his partner.
3. As soon as the police arrive but before they come in, put your weapon aside and ID yourself as being the homeowner. I'd raise my hands in the air to show I was unarmed so I was treated like the homeowner instead of a BG. I like to hear, "I'm the homeowner and I put down the gun. The robber is lying on the floor over here". That answers all the immediate safety questions and establishes GG from BG. My first responses would be: Is anyone hurt and is the robber alone?
Post-Police Arrival
There are only 3-people who can give you a knowledgeable answer to this question:
1. Defense attorney
2. Prosecutor who has jurisdiction in this matter
3. Detective or senior patrol person (sgt or above) in the PD who has >15-years on-the-job and who services your area
Their answers will be different, but their responses will be based on the political climate in your area.
However, your post-shooting response needs to be divided into two parts: pre-police arrival and post-police arrival.
Pre-Police Arrival
1. Give the Dispatcher enough information to have adequate resources respond (multiple patrolmen, supervisor, and ambulance) and can readily find your house and hopefully ID the BG's car and grab any accomplices. The situation inside the house also needs to be explained so responders know what to expect as the scene might not be secure (BGs still kicking, some on the loose, house occupants panicking, etc) .
2. Continue to protect yourself as the BG might get up or there may well be a second one who comes looking for his partner.
3. As soon as the police arrive but before they come in, put your weapon aside and ID yourself as being the homeowner. I'd raise my hands in the air to show I was unarmed so I was treated like the homeowner instead of a BG. I like to hear, "I'm the homeowner and I put down the gun. The robber is lying on the floor over here". That answers all the immediate safety questions and establishes GG from BG. My first responses would be: Is anyone hurt and is the robber alone?
Post-Police Arrival
There are only 3-people who can give you a knowledgeable answer to this question:
1. Defense attorney
2. Prosecutor who has jurisdiction in this matter
3. Detective or senior patrol person (sgt or above) in the PD who has >15-years on-the-job and who services your area
Their answers will be different, but their responses will be based on the political climate in your area.
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Just a few comments:
Jeff22 Post #35. Best discussion I have seen on this subject.
TennJed Post #19: My CCW Instructor provided a list of SUCCSSFUL 5a Attorneys as a part of the course materials. Most of them were successful in defending LEOs as well as civilians. Most Attorneys will give you an hour or so to discuse your situation.
Joneman post # 22: Do not expect to get your weapon back. Some departments have a problem with retaining a chain of custody once the case is closed. Pinal County SO, Paul Babeau is reported to have lost over 200 weapons along with the custody documents.
Recieve the Police you should be Clearly visible, with Open hands up, weapon on ground and out of your reach. Assuming it is safe to do so. Generally the bad guys DeDE when the blue lights are visible.
While on Reserve Duty in NM with a bunch of Ar Troopers I listened to a discussion with NM LEOs concerning NMs open carry. NM Guys said they loved it when they pulled up on a shooting. The bad guy was on the ground and the shooter was standing there with his gun on the ground along with his ID and his hands in the air.
Jeff22 Post #35. Best discussion I have seen on this subject.
TennJed Post #19: My CCW Instructor provided a list of SUCCSSFUL 5a Attorneys as a part of the course materials. Most of them were successful in defending LEOs as well as civilians. Most Attorneys will give you an hour or so to discuse your situation.
Joneman post # 22: Do not expect to get your weapon back. Some departments have a problem with retaining a chain of custody once the case is closed. Pinal County SO, Paul Babeau is reported to have lost over 200 weapons along with the custody documents.
Recieve the Police you should be Clearly visible, with Open hands up, weapon on ground and out of your reach. Assuming it is safe to do so. Generally the bad guys DeDE when the blue lights are visible.
While on Reserve Duty in NM with a bunch of Ar Troopers I listened to a discussion with NM LEOs concerning NMs open carry. NM Guys said they loved it when they pulled up on a shooting. The bad guy was on the ground and the shooter was standing there with his gun on the ground along with his ID and his hands in the air.
Often times a good lawyer will be able to get statements thrown out if you have not been advised of your rights. I would not want to rely on that though.
I would be real careful about what you say. Just keep in mind you will have to repeat the story about one billion times. Laws are very different in different states and one action that might get you no billed in one state will get you locked up for 5-10 in another.
I would not count on the police not taking all of your guns unless the case is open and shut and they believe your story. Most likely they will believe that the gun apparent in play was the gun used; but a smart cop might want to cover his bases just in case something goes haywire.
Great advice.
Alternatively if you acted outside the law but believed it was necessary at the time you are going to have a rough time of it. Strangely everyone here is assuming a good shoot. I can't really advise you here on what to do if you broke the law with the best of intentions but don't want to go to prison for momentary lapse of judgment in a situation that you did not instigate.
I would be real careful about what you say. Just keep in mind you will have to repeat the story about one billion times. Laws are very different in different states and one action that might get you no billed in one state will get you locked up for 5-10 in another.
I would not count on the police not taking all of your guns unless the case is open and shut and they believe your story. Most likely they will believe that the gun apparent in play was the gun used; but a smart cop might want to cover his bases just in case something goes haywire.
Great advice.
Alternatively if you acted outside the law but believed it was necessary at the time you are going to have a rough time of it. Strangely everyone here is assuming a good shoot. I can't really advise you here on what to do if you broke the law with the best of intentions but don't want to go to prison for momentary lapse of judgment in a situation that you did not instigate.
I've said this before,
and I'll say it again. Always remember that your public statements are exactly that: public. Your posts on this and other forums are able to be used in a case, either civil or criminal. If a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney can paint you as a gun crazed psycho waiting or hoping to ambush someone, they will.
Be careful what you say, be careful who you say it to, and always be aware that anything can be used against you.
and I'll say it again. Always remember that your public statements are exactly that: public. Your posts on this and other forums are able to be used in a case, either civil or criminal. If a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney can paint you as a gun crazed psycho waiting or hoping to ambush someone, they will.
Be careful what you say, be careful who you say it to, and always be aware that anything can be used against you.
Once again... Most of the investigation will consist of forensics, and proximity. (NO RACIAL INSULT INTENDED) If a White man is in his home and a black man breaks in at 4AM,and is armed, and the white man shoots him... It wont take rocket science to figure out what happened. You can swap races, and neighborhoods any way you want. You'd still get the same results.
The facts will be what they are. Some may even try to interpet the evidence to fit a particular scenario, but the facts dont change.
Has anyone ever actually see a citizen prosicuted for a self defense shooting in a home invasion?
As a criminal investigator... self defense shootings tend to be ground ball's.
The facts will be what they are. Some may even try to interpet the evidence to fit a particular scenario, but the facts dont change.
Has anyone ever actually see a citizen prosicuted for a self defense shooting in a home invasion?
As a criminal investigator... self defense shootings tend to be ground ball's.
Location, location, location.
If your in Texas (maybe not Travis County), Oklahoma, rural Pennsylvania, (etc) you're probably OK unless the evidence strongly suggests a bad shoot. If your in New Jersey, of course you will be arrested and I would expect the police to tear your house apart looking for your other guns, doing as much damage as possible -- heck, they might even burn it down just for fun.
Other states will fall somewhere in between.
Having one gun stored in your safe deposit box might not be a bad idea regardless. Think I'll take care of that this week...
If your in Texas (maybe not Travis County), Oklahoma, rural Pennsylvania, (etc) you're probably OK unless the evidence strongly suggests a bad shoot. If your in New Jersey, of course you will be arrested and I would expect the police to tear your house apart looking for your other guns, doing as much damage as possible -- heck, they might even burn it down just for fun.
Other states will fall somewhere in between.
Having one gun stored in your safe deposit box might not be a bad idea regardless. Think I'll take care of that this week...
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Do you have some actual evidence to support that conjecture or are you just playing around taking cheap shots at New Jersey? Bashing States just for fun is not helpful.zxcvbob said:
And you might want to remember that a number of folks, in gun friendly States, have had some very tough and expensive times establishing justification for their use of lethal force. Harold Fish, Mark Abshire and Larry Hickey come immediately to mind.
A little of both. I've read accounts of this sort of thing happening in NJ, and I exaggerated a little just for fun.
In one case, if I can remember it correctly, someone won a Marlin .22 autoloader in a police benefit auction. Some years later, they were arrested for possession of that same rifle and charged with a felony because the tubular magazine holds too many rounds. (not sure if it's too many .22LR's, or potentially could hold too many if you load .22 Shorts.)
NJ police and politicians are *so* antigun (about like NYC but more corrupt) I really don't know how anybody lives there. Props to any gun owners who can manage it.
I think my main point is still valid; it depends on the politics of what state you are in, and maybe what county.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
[1] Statements like "I read accounts..." really don't mean much without a citation to the source.zxcvbob said:
[2] And "exaggerated a little for fun" isn't helpful or appropriate in this context.
What if you don't remember it correctly?zxcvbob said:
New Jersey has some strict and onerous gun laws. Whether the authorities in New Jersey (or New York) are corrupt is another matter for which you need to present evidence.zxcvbob said:
And your main point is still not valid. What matters most is exactly what happened, how it happened, what evidence there is, and how you handled the aftermath. Harold Fish, Mark Abshire and Larry Hickey were raked over the coals in gun friendly States.zxcvbob said:
I don't want to add noise to the information here, but I do feel that one perspective has been overlooked. If your home is being invaded and you can fort up, being forted up and keeping 911 on the line seems to have worked in a few recent cases. This is especially true for the mother who held up in her bedroom and had 911 on the phone when the invader came crashing in causing her to kill him with the shotgun she was holding (this has been covered on the national news and many posts on this site and others). The other was is the report (a number of threads up from this one but in the Tactics forum) of the mother who had to fumble around looking for a weapon that she knew was around somewhere while her son, hiding in a closet, called 911 and got repeatedly disconnected. In either case, only a DA who was politically suicidal would have prosecuted. All this supposes that you can fort up in some room and maintain contact of some sort with 911.
I guess we have a bit more luck here in Oklahoma. For example Midwest City, Oklahoma had three shootings in the past 1 1/2 years that were ruled justifiable. And again one good thing about our Self Defense Act is if your shooting is ruled justified then you can not be sued by the one shot ( if he lives ) nor his family . Not they are not too easy as to let someone one off that shows overkill. As anyone has remembered the Ersland case in Oklahoma City. Now as far as the emotional aspect I will not begin to say I know what that will be like. Seeing I have never been in a shooting and I hope I never am . The only thing I like to kill is paper. But I do hope that if it were to happen that my faith in my Lord will guide through it( not preaching ) . I am sure everyone has their own way to deal with the aftermath . And you will only know what will help you once that time comes.
TexasJustice7
New member
Here in Texas a police officer friend of mine told me that the gun used probably would be held, not other guns in the house. But this is Texas. That includes just about any self defense shooting. So good to have extras in Texas. 
silvermane_1
New member
imo video camras are the best way to go in a sd shooting when a home is invaded, that way now matter how the leo or da tries to spin it the video doesn't lie, yes there is fact of that video cams might say "hey come and rob me, i have expensive toys inside" , but it whould show the facts if it comes down to it, but what is already mention in the other replies in this post are great ideas aswell, but even in anti-gun communities video footage will go a long way in the foremention situation in the post.
If a firearm or any other object is used to cause the death of a human being... that firearm or device will be taken into custody as evidence. Evidence works two ways... It can tend to convict someone... or tend to exculpate them (proof of being not guilty of a crime).
A criminal investigator will have no legitimate reason to sieze other property including firearms, unless he has a reason to believe they constitute an ongoing threat or are a danger to others, or the well being of the subject. So if an Officer believes that a subject of an investigation is so distrought over his actions that he may do himself harm... He'd have a reason to sieze other firearms. Or if the subject is making statements about revenge, or makes threats to anyone... His weapons may be subject to siezure.
Unless I'm being misled by my friends in the legal profession all siezures are subject to judicial review at some point.
A criminal investigator will have no legitimate reason to sieze other property including firearms, unless he has a reason to believe they constitute an ongoing threat or are a danger to others, or the well being of the subject. So if an Officer believes that a subject of an investigation is so distrought over his actions that he may do himself harm... He'd have a reason to sieze other firearms. Or if the subject is making statements about revenge, or makes threats to anyone... His weapons may be subject to siezure.
Unless I'm being misled by my friends in the legal profession all siezures are subject to judicial review at some point.