Home Defense Scenario

R

ramp_tech

New member
A bullet will fly through dry walls, windows, and even some bricks without any problems and the possibilities of a bullet can hit a random innocent bystander during home defense scenario would constitute a great liability for us (handgun owners who are willing to shoot).

I've read how shooters been prosecuted for negligence or manslaughter because of a bullet that went down the wrong path, and the thought of paying a huge fine if not prison term for the the unintentional mistake sends chills up and down my spine.

I understand the importance of acquiring the target in the first shot, and that's why we all spend time in the range. But in a emergency scenario, your heart beat changes, your blood pressure rises, the adrenaline rush and the dark rooms will not help but makes it seems worst.

IMO, it probably comes down to the selection of a less penetrating HD ammunition. What do you have in mind?
Should I go with ammo's that has less penetration? And what are my options?
 
Pistol rounds will not penetrate bricks. If you choose to shoot a bad guy in your home, be sure of your target and have a backstop(fireplace,safe,etc).

I choose a 12 guage with #4 buck. Less penetration,but still does the job.
 
The best solution is the 12-20 gauge shotgun. Depending on the home construction; 00 buck, 4 buck, BB-#4 birdshot can all be great solutions. None of which, if gone through a wall, should retain enough energy to be life threatening. Not unless the person on the other side of the wall is right up against the wall.

For hand guns, you need to make your own decisions. Obviously, the slower and more hollow point or flat, the less chance of going further should you miss your target. But whether you use a 22LR or a 44MAG; they can all go through a wall. The only BEST choice where you can actually make some guarantees, is with a shotgun. later... mike.....
 
living in an apartment, I have considered this. My choice is 4" .357 loaded with +P.38 125 JHP. My situation, should he/they break in, would be close (less than 15') combat (if they move toward the bedrooms).

Hopefully there will not be bad shots and/or over penetration but I sure understand your concerns. There is no unit across from me (which is the direction from which a BG would enter).
 
ramp tech,
Use what is needed to stop the threat first; all else is secondary.

You can "What if?" on a jury all day and still never come up with a certainty.
 
Any bullet that meets the FBI's standards for penetration (12-16") can go completely through an erect biped and will go through interior wall if it doesn't go through something pretty large first. Likewise, a shotgun, even if loaded with light birdshot, will penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock at close range.

The best option, IMHO, is not to look at overpenetration from an ammunition-selection standpoint but to look at it from a tactics standpoint. Try to make sure that your family is unlikely to be in the most likely lines of fire during a home invasion (i.e. find the most likely entry points and position your family away from them). Also, try if possible to seek a position that both gives you a tactical advantage and minimizes the risk of collateral damage (ex. if you live in a multi-level home, have your family sleep on the top floor and position yourself at the top of the stairs).

I think a little planning ahead with regards to tactics will do infinately more good that worrying about whether your ammunition overpenetrates or not.
 
Hirlau; I don't know if I can go with that advice. A bazooka would stop the threat, but probably isn't the right weapon. And ALL ELSE is not secondary. Forget about lawyers and such; you have a responsibility that with the same vigilance that you are using to protect yourself, that you don't intentionally harm others. That is your responsibility. You can't just shrug that off because you think your self protection is more important. If you live in an apartment complex; you need to consider the person on the other side of that wall you could possibly shoot through as though it was your 8 year old child in their bed room. That is the ONLY way to think of it. Just because that person on the other side of that wall isn't your son or daughter is not an excuse. Forget the law; that's just plain irresponsible. And that's as bad as the criminal breaking into your house trying to rob the place.

There is not just 2 options to anything. Use a shotgun. Use glasers. If you want, use fragmentable bullets. There are plenty of options. But saying confronting the threat is the more important factor; and grabbing a 44 mag is what I will use; and all others outside are on their own and shouldn't be considered; is not an option. That's irresponsible and negligent.
 
christcorp,

You sure did read alot into that.:rolleyes:
You brought in bazookas, shotguns, 44 mags; how did you forget RPG'S ?

You brought my family into it.

My first responsibility is to stop the threat and stay alive.

You assume that the above weapons would play a role in this.

We all know what assumptions are good for, don't we, cristcorp.;)

But thank you for sharing the love.:p
 
I didn't read anything into it. You specifically said to the poster;
Use what is needed to stop the threat first; all else is secondary.
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You can't just use whatever is needed to stop the threat first. If you live in a free standing house with no neighbors close; or you live in a crackerjack box apartment complex very much determines what you should be using to stop the threat.
 
Given that this is the General Handgun subforum on TFL, I think it's reasonable for participants in this thread to assume that the discussion is primarily about handguns and handgun ammunition.

That said, here is my take.

The goal is for the occupants of the dwelling to remain safe. The question is whether the defender's missed shots pose more of a threat to the occupants of the dwelling than does the attacker.

If a defender feels that the attacker is the most urgent threat to the occupants then the handgun/ammunition choice should be centered on effectiveness. That would include factors like practical accuracy, terminal effect, etc.

If a defender feels like his missed shots are more of a threat to the occupants than the criminal is then the handgun/ammunition choice should be made such that the penetration of interior walls will be minimized. Unfortunately that choice will also minimize penetration in the event that the bullet strikes the armed criminal--and many experts feel that this will compromise its effectiveness.

It's always important to avoid being forced (or falling) into a false dichotomy--that is feeling that one is constrained to one of two choices when actually others are available. So we should ask ourselves if other reasonable choices/solutions are available to us.

The best way to insure that one's bullets do not pose a danger to others in the dwelling is to insure that the bullets hit the target. Everybody misses once in awhile, but most people have a lot of room for improvement based on reasonable amounts of practice. The nice thing about this approach is that it not only minimizes the danger of errant rounds, it also increases the chances of rapidly incapacitating the attacker.

Another way to deal with this problem is to think out scenarios ahead of time and set up the dwelling so that likely "shoot through" walls are reinforced. Bookcases are an excellent and very practical way to achieve this.

The bottom line is that one shouldn't feel that the only option is to choose between effective ammunition or inadequate penetration. There are other very reasonable/sensible ways to solve this problem in a responsible manner.
 
You miss my point, this may be my fault, though; so I'll try again;

If the OP does not choose a weapon capable of stopping the threat; then nothing else will matter. The OP has put his primary emphasis on the safety of everything around him first; to the point of possibly choosing a weapon that will be insufficient to stop the threat.

I have had to face more than a few life threats in my life, due to my job. I am alive today because my FIRST responsibility was to do whatever it took to stop the threat. I was fortunate though, to have been trained in how to escalate my response to life threats and was given the training with weapons that got the job done.

YES, you not only can use what is needed; you must to survive.

At last , we all have choices in this matter; you can enter into this decision with less than 100 % to survive, but I will not.

My Family is too young right now, to make it without me.
 
I'm a .38 SPL & 9X18 fan when talking about shooting in the house. I also have an old, fast Glenfield 60 that's usually handy and loaded with Velocitors.

I have neighbors nearby.
 
IMO, it probably comes down to the selection of a less penetrating HD ammunition. What do you have in mind?
Should I go with ammo's that has less penetration? And what are my options?
Click to expand...

To many factors to consider.

Like other's had said, "not including the original poster." So many different situations, and it's you that have to make a decision on what you need for what ever scenario's.

From,...... if you live alone in a farm house way out in the country, or you live in a two bedroom apartment with a wife and two kids in the city.

44mag, or a door alarm (Dog barking alarm too), to maybe some Glasers, and many, many other options.

I could drag this on, but it's now a dead horse, "Again"!
 
Ramp tech, . . .

First, you have to know that you are far more than likely NEVER going to be in a firefight in a HD situation. Sheer numbers and the probability factor make that a given.

BUT, . . . if you are ever in that situation, . . . you have to ask only one question: What is most important, . . . my life and the lives of my friends/family, . . . or the "possibility" of hitting some innocent person with a loose shot?

Once you decide that your life and your friends/family are the important ones, then you only have to get in enough practice so you will be competent to make that 7 foot shot, . . . that 12 foot shot, . . . or that 18 foot shot; and do them consistently, . . . under different lighting conditions, . . . with either hand, . . . etc. Practice enough to become confident and competent.

We can beat the dead horse of caliber/bullet size/handgun/shotty/etc. till the cows come home and die of old age, . . . but it comes down simply to your personal ability to put the rounds where you need/want them, . . . and the rest will take care of itself.

If you are dead set on a round that has a very good percentage chance of not going outside your house, . . . there are self defense rounds made of small shot, bonded together that break up on contact. If they would put your mind at ease, . . . maybe you should look into them. They can be found on the internet under "frangible" rounds.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
I had a 9mm silver tip go through two drywall sheets and a 1/2" plywood door before it took out the bottom plate in a stack of ten plates. I also spent about 10 minutes as deaf as can be. The noise of any firearm inside a home is different than that of an indoor range.

I choose a shotgun with nothing in the chamber so when I rack a round as hard as I can it will scare most of the bad guys and a three cell mag light. Not only can I see in the dark with the mag light, but it makes a mess of a bad guy's knees or head if I have to get that close.

I live in the country, so the dogs will tell me they are there first and then I can get ready. I think good old common sense should prevail. I am more likely to have a cougar or coyote than a bad guy out here. Oh, and before any shot is fired a call to 911 is in order.

Just my .02

Mel:cool:
 
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use hollow points with heavier bullets. I use 230g golden sabers for the 45. 45's are low pressure and slow. My shots are going to hit the bad guy. If they go through, pieces will go out of him into my walls, and no where else.
 
I realize that I may be consider totally irresponsible, however penetration is not a concern in my thinking. My only consideration is having a weapon that will effectively stop a threat. Thus, if i can get to my closet, I will have my AK in my hands. I have read too many stories of handguns and even buckshot not stopping a bad guy.

The 7.62 is a highly effective round and the AK gives me lots of rounds. The Kobra sight is easy to use in CQB situations.

I live in the country, so penetration is not a concern. However, if it were, I tend to think it is highly over-exaggerated. What are the odds that a bullet is going through walls and then randomly hit someone with enough energy to do damage. Possible, sure, but highly improbable. The odds that a bad guy will take a few 9mm or 45 rounds and kepp fighting is much higher.

Anyone know where I can get a bazooka?:D
 
skifast:

I realize that I may be consider totally irresponsible, however penetration is not a concern in my thinking. My only consideration is having a weapon that will effectively stop a threat. Thus, if i can get to my closet, I will have my AK in my hands. I have read too many stories of handguns and even buckshot not stopping a bad guy.

The 7.62 is a highly effective round and the AK gives me lots of rounds. The Kobra sight is easy to use in CQB situations.

I live in the country, so penetration is not a concern. However, if it were, I tend to think it is highly over-exaggerated. What are the odds that a bullet is going through walls and then randomly hit someone with enough energy to do damage. Possible, sure, but highly improbable. The odds that a bad guy will take a few 9mm or 45 rounds and kepp fighting is much higher.

Anyone know where I can get a bazooka?
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Two hole's Are better than one X???
 
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