HOME defense ammo for 9mm

I don't have neighbors to worry about when I am home from school regarding penetration, so my 870 alternates 00 buck and steel slugs.

Dad sleeps with a Colt Python 4" with Buffalo Bore
Mom sleeps with Ruger LCR with Buffalo Bore
Bro has a Colt AR-15
Dogs weigh 100lbs and there are three.
Baaaaad house to rob.

Original poster, while I carry Federal HST, for home defense I actually like the semi obsolete Hydra Shok. Great reliability track record.
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Badass family...You rock. God bless you all, mean that from the bottom of my heart, body, and soul. Hope you never have to use it, any of you and if you do..any of you. You all come out on top. All I'm gonna say. Family like that stays together. Not even zombies can touch that. lol




Anyways, I have 00buck in my 870 also...Ran out, so the last 2 are #6 birdshot...whatever. :P
 
lawnboy: said:
The alternate opinion is basically that the 1oz or so of tiny pellets act as one ginormous projectile that essentially is like ramming a steel bar into the opponents midsection with the force equal to over 1000 ft/lbs. At self defense ranges, which as most shooters know are likely to be inside 30 feet (there is nowhere in my home where I could even take a 30 ft shot) the pattern is going to be smaller than a small salad plate so "spraying" shot around is not an issue (even using a cylinder choke). The 350 or so pellets in that #7.5 12ga shell ARE tiny and light, but this means that they will expend their force in the target and thus can't overpenetrate. But their sheer number chews a big chunk out of the same target. In other words, you stand a chance of actually getting a KNOCKDOWN where the target is taken off his feet by force, rather than a falldown. The force of those pellets is roughly equal to the force of two .45 rounds.

Believe me, I heard and read both arguments. And I found that if overpenetration was a concern for me the birdshot argument was more compelling.
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Well, it is your choice, but what you suggest above (highlighted in bold red above) is a physical impossibility.

The transfer of momentum (Newton's Third Law applies here) that you describe cannot possibly have the effect that you assign to it.

I'll try explain this as briefly as possible.

Newton's Third Law of Motion says that the momentum of the shooter & weapon must be equal to that of the felon & bullet, in other words: MV = MV

This means that if the person being shot is knocked on his butt, so too, will the firer of the gun delivering that Herculean blow.

Using Newton's equation (MV = MV) to solve for the rearward velocity of the guy taking the bullet gives us...

438 grains (the mass of the one ounce shot charge in grains) times 1,330 fps (the velocity of the shot charge at impact) divided by 1,225,000 (the mass of the 175 pound person being shot in grains) gives us the felon's "rearward velocity" which is (=) 0.4755 fps. (that's about 5.7 inches per second or 0.324 mph)

...which means that no one is going to be "taken off his feet by force, rather than a falldown."

The impression given by material produced in Hollywood that a shotgun blast (of any sort) will lift a person up from the ground and propel him/her through the nearest plate glass window or interior wall is an absolute falsehood and a physical impossibility. Not gonna happen...

If this sort of "information" is the criterion by which you are selecting your SD weapon and ammunition, I would respectfully suggest that your choice is based upon some very, very unsound assumptions.
 
Originally Posted by lawnboy:
The alternate opinion is basically that the 1oz or so of tiny pellets act as one ginormous projectile that essentially is like ramming a steel bar into the opponents midsection with the force equal to over 1000 ft/lbs. At self defense ranges, which as most shooters know are likely to be inside 30 feet (there is nowhere in my home where I could even take a 30 ft shot) the pattern is going to be smaller than a small salad plate so "spraying" shot around is not an issue (even using a cylinder choke). The 350 or so pellets in that #7.5 12ga shell ARE tiny and light, but this means that they will expend their force in the target and thus can't overpenetrate. But their sheer number chews a big chunk out of the same target. In other words, you stand a chance of actually getting a KNOCKDOWN where the target is taken off his feet by force, rather than a falldown. The force of those pellets is roughly equal to the force of two .45 rounds.

Believe me, I heard and read both arguments. And I found that if overpenetration was a concern for me the birdshot argument was more compelling.
Well, it is your choice, but what you suggest above (highlighted in bold red above) is a physical impossibility.

The transfer of momentum (Newton's Third Law applies here) that you describe cannot possibly have the effect that you assign to it.

I'll try explain this as briefly as possible.

Newton's Third Law of Motion says that the momentum of the shooter & weapon must be equal to that of the felon & bullet, in other words: MV = MV

This means that if the person being shot is knocked on his butt, so too, will the firer of the gun delivering that Herculean blow.

Using Newton's equation (MV = MV) to solve for the rearward velocity of the guy taking the bullet gives us...

438 grains (the mass of the one ounce shot charge in grains) times 1,330 fps (the velocity of the shot charge at impact) divided by 1,225,000 (the mass of the 175 pound person being shot in grains) gives us the felon's "rearward velocity" which is (=) 0.4755 fps. (that's about 5.7 inches per second or 0.324 mph)

...which means that no one is going to be "taken off his feet by force, rather than a falldown."

The impression given by material produced in Hollywood that a shotgun blast (of any sort) will lift a person up from the ground and propel him/her through the nearest plate glass window or interior wall is an absolute falsehood and a physical impossibility. Not gonna happen...

If this sort of "information" is the criterion by which you are selecting your SD weapon and ammunition, I would respectfully suggest that your choice is based upon some very, very unsound assumptions
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I believe we have had this conversation before. The math makes sense I admit. I'll have to go back and look up the actual info I paraphrased above. It was much more convincing than my summary was. Believe me, I know that people walk right through gunshot wounds from various calibers all the time. There is no magic round that stops 'em every time. Some are better than others. When I made the shotgun/#7.5 decision collateral damage was front of mind. I'll have to think about it again.

I still like the shotgun for middle of the night wakeup situations though. Plus an empty or jammed shotgun is still a weapon. An empty/jammed handgun is a paper weight. At least in my hands.

Back to the OP's point, if you must go handgun for home defense I vote for any readily available, major manufacturer JHP that will reliably work in your handgun of choice. I would not use a different round for HOME defense than everywhere else.
 
lawnboy: said:
I believe we have had this conversation before.
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I doubt that you and I have had this discussion before. First time that I've discussed the issue here and on this 'site. ;)

lawnboy: said:
The math makes sense I admit. I'll have to go back and look up the actual info I paraphrased above. It was much more convincing than my summary was. Believe me, I know that people walk right through gunshot wounds from various calibers all the time. There is no magic round that stops 'em every time. Some are better than others. When I made the shotgun/#7.5 decision collateral damage was front of mind. I'll have to think about it again.
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OK, so long as you are thinkin'. I have no other intent here other than to encourage critical thought and I am glad that you've got an open mind. It's a rare commodity these days.
 
When people talk about the "knock down" I like to remind them of Chuck Lidell. He is one of the strongest punchers in Mixed Martial Arts. He has had his punches measured at well over 1,400lb/ft of force.

I have seen him punch a lot of people and they didn't fall down. Yes he has scored more knock outs than other people. However, even with more force than most common hand gun calibers (and some rifle calibers) he fails to deliver a knock down with each punch.

Don't expect an individual projectile from a handgun, or a mass of shot, to take somebody off of their feet. At best it is only going to rock them back. Even that probably won't happen with anything under a 12ga.
 
One thing nice about Glasers*, or Pow'R balls* is, they feed like a FMJs, but are HPs, per say.

Glaser* 80g 1500fps 399ftlbs. I wouldn't want to be shot with one, ok, I don't want to be shot with a Red Rider either.:D
 
Some opinions, free and worth every penny. ;)

For the OP: If a bullet will not penetrate two layers of sheetrock and insulation it will not penetrate a human body sufficiently to incapacitate. If one is worried about apartment/condo neighbors then plan ahead. Evaluate the living space for the most likely "vulnerable" areas where a bullet might transition from your space to the neighbors. Look for ways to "strategically" protect/decorate that area. Such as installing a bookshelf along the adjoining livingroom walls (and filling it with books). Then use standard pressure medium to lightweight bullets (i.e. 115gr 9mm, 125gr .38 Special, 155gr .40, etc.)

Re: Shotguns and birdshot.
First off, shotguns may be good defensive weapons, however they are somewhat clumsy to use when answering a late night knock on the door or fetching the mail from the mailbox.

As previously indicated, the tiny pellets in birdshot give up their energy quickly. Just because they are traveling together as a "pack" doesn't mean that they somehow obtain magical properties to penetrate significantly deeper or transmit some kind of extra "punch". Buckshot pellets are round balls and don't weigh all that much. A single #00 pellet only weighs about 60 grains and carries about 220 ft-lbs. Pentration runs 8-12 inches in gelatin tests that I've seen (when fired from ~20 ft).

Birdshot does make terribly ugly, but shallow wounds. Small pellets are easily stopped by bones, even rib bones and the sternum. That .095" pellet weighs about 1/2 grain. Not even a gaggle of them hitting together will penetrate more than just a couple of inches. This is NOT what I want when trying to stop someone intent on parting my hair with a butcher's knife!
 
You know I've watched an 8yr old kid open a door too fast and knock a hole in a sheet of drywall. I've never seen an 8yr old kid drive a door knob through someone's ribcage though. I suspect that is because human beings can soak up much more damage than drywall.

If you are using lethal force in self-defense, it should be because you have a reasonable fear of an immediate threat of death or serious injury. If that is the situation I am in, I don't plan to be using a projectile with less force than a kid and a doorknob.

Stopping that threat is your first problem. The longer that threat is present, the greater the danger to you and bystanders.

Re: Glasers/Magsafe, see this thread (graphic content):
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336409
 
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Chris in va: I think it's more important to find a round that feeds and ejects in your particular gun properly.

You can argue this HP vs. that HP, but in the end, that^ is the best advice given so far in this thread.
 
BillCA: said:
Some opinions, free and worth every penny.

For the OP: If a bullet will not penetrate two layers of sheetrock and insulation it will not penetrate a human body sufficiently to incapacitate. If one is worried about apartment/condo neighbors then plan ahead. Evaluate the living space for the most likely "vulnerable" areas where a bullet might transition from your space to the neighbors. Look for ways to "strategically" protect/decorate that area. Such as installing a bookshelf along the adjoining livingroom walls (and filling it with books). Then use standard pressure medium to lightweight bullets (i.e. 115gr 9mm, 125gr .38 Special, 155gr .40, etc.)

Re: Shotguns and birdshot.
First off, shotguns may be good defensive weapons, however they are somewhat clumsy to use when answering a late night knock on the door or fetching the mail from the mailbox.

As previously indicated, the tiny pellets in birdshot give up their energy quickly. Just because they are traveling together as a "pack" doesn't mean that they somehow obtain magical properties to penetrate significantly deeper or transmit some kind of extra "punch". Buckshot pellets are round balls and don't weigh all that much. A single #00 pellet only weighs about 60 grains and carries about 220 ft-lbs. Pentration runs 8-12 inches in gelatin tests that I've seen (when fired from ~20 ft).

Birdshot does make terribly ugly, but shallow wounds. Small pellets are easily stopped by bones, even rib bones and the sternum. That .095" pellet weighs about 1/2 grain. Not even a gaggle of them hitting together will penetrate more than just a couple of inches. This is NOT what I want when trying to stop someone intent on parting my hair with a butcher's knife!
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Good observations, Bill.

The phenomena of shotgun pellets striking a target en masse at (very) close range is known as "rat-holing" and can slightly increase the depth of penetration in such an event. This effect, besides making little significant difference in penetration depth, requires the existence of a strict set of conditions that may not be easily created when the situation demands and is not something that I would want to pin my hopes and dreams on.

As you've pointed out, 00 Buck provides more reasonable, but not excessive, penetration and it is hard to argue against the efficacy of 12-18 such projectiles (depending upon the load) against the sort of target that we are discussing here.

:)
 
BillCA nailed it.

I would avoid the gimmicky super duper nitro magsafe/extreme shock ammo. Stick with time tested, street proven loads like Gold Dots, HST's, XTP's, etc... and other stuff like that. These are the loads that professionals are using and there is a good reason for it.

Get to the RANGE and learn to hit your target. SHOT PLACEMENT is the single most important factor, even moreso than your chosen hollow point.
 
Reliable function in your pistol is #1, with shot placement a close second, IMO.

The nice thing is, the more range time you put in, the more you can trust your pistol and ammo combination's reliability, and the better your shot placement should be.

Practice, it's a win-win.
 
Quite a few good 9mm loads anymore. These are my top five...

1) 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P
2) 115gr Corbon DPX
3) 127gr Winchester Ranger T +P+
4) 115gr Corbon +P
5) 115gr Federal +P+ (9bple)

They all work, and have been proven to work, over and over again. The Federal HST loads look really great on paper but I just haven't seen enough real world data on them, plus they are pretty hard to find. If you want a standard pressure load I would suggest the good old Federal 115gr Hi-shock (9bp...and its not the hydra-shock) or the Speer 124gr load.

As far as shotgun vs handgun for home defense I believe that it depends on a number of criteria and circumstances. If you are not worried about overpenetration (whether it be neighbors or your children in an adjacent bedroom) and you have time to practice with it, there is not a more devastating platform then the shotgun. Birdshot is for birds IMO, and buckshot is for close range self defense. The problem is, if you have a miss, instead of one projectile you now have 9 projectiles. Even if you get a good shot off there is still more chance of a flier because every time you pull the trigger that is like pulling the trigger of a handgun 9 times. This is something important to remember if you have other people in the house or neighbors that are close by. Other considerations are the shotgun is a fairly complex, low capacity platform. It takes a great deal of practice with to be proficient. I do not see it as a point a shoot weapon like gets mentioned fairly often. Also, it is a two handed weapon system for the most part whereas with a handgun you can operate it one handed fairly easily. All considerations that need to be taken into account. For the most part, even though it is less powerful, a handgun usually makes more sense as a home defense weapon then a shotgun, however I have both by my bedside just in case ;)
 
extreme shock
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Ummm, no. These aren't exactly results that you should be looking for in a self defense load. http://www.potomacltd.com/images/am2rletterweb.jpg The EPR overpenetrated the 18" gel block after losing large chunks of the bullet along the way and the Air Freedom is just another frangible round that broke apart into little bits with a very shallow wound cavity. There is a reason that these products are not mainstream; too much on price and too little on performance.

More testing of the Air Freedom load and the Extreme fang face :confused: So much for not penetrating drywall... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
 
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