Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD

Can it or can't it go through 6 walls

In the real world feasibly it can not. Again I invite you to think about why that would be so. As a hint I will tell you that the BoT test did not shoot through six walls. It shot through 12 pieces of wall board several inches apart. It is crazy talk to try to equate that to six walls.

and is there a risk to innocents in those rooms?

Well that depends on the situation. This discussion is about killing your next door neighbor, not somebody in the next room. Any effective round (buckshot, 9mm, .45 etc) will pose a risk to the person in the next room of most conventional houses.

People used to fire guns into the air to celibate New Years. The number of people killed each year from falling bullets was infinitesimal. Does that mean it was foolish for cities to ban firing into the air?

:rolleyes: sigh

I would say if the number killed/ wounded were ZERO and the people were firing to save their lives and not in a drunken gratuitous haze then yes it was foolish to ban it.

Anyway I'm not going to argue the point anymore.

Well Ok.
 
Why? I want a pattern if I'm grabbing a shotgun.

Choices are good. I'm in favor of them.

I use a shotgun as a short range defensive weapon because it's the largest caliber long gun I can easily handle, and it fires payloads measured in ounces not grains. As Clint Smith says, I like shotguns because they will remove meat and bone from a target. I choose shotguns for their terminal effect, not to make up for my own shortcomings at delivering the payload on target. It's my job to hit what I shoot at, it's the shotgun's job to neutralize what I hit. A minimum of research into the history of fighting shotguns will provide more than adequate evidence as to their efficiency as fight stoppers when used properly.

My choice is for tight patterns even in a plain ordinary joe citizen defensive shotgun. I want to get as much useful range out of buckshot as I can before I have to switch to slugs. In the terms many shotgun trainers use, I want to extend my 'A zone' to the point that I can eliminate the 'B zone' completely.

It's my conclusion that buckshot pellets can run out of sufficient energy to do the job before they run out of pattern in some cases, and I don't want to push my luck at ranges much longer than 25 yards with buckshot no matter how well it patterns.

The load and barrel I use allows me to extend my A zone out to 25 yards or so, at which point I will likely be switching to slugs anyway if circumstances permit.

That has nothing to do with police needs, or military needs, or anyone else's needs. That's my choice based on my own training and experience.

YMMV of course.

lpl
----------------
http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/In-defense-of-the-shotgun/1$40875

/snip/
Patterning
Patterning is how you determine the spread of the buckshot as the range increases. It is the first step in understanding how your weapon will perform with buckshot. To pattern, fire single rounds at paper targets from 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards. Knowing how the gun patterns is a very important part of training and should be the first thing taught to shotgun shooters.

A shotgun has three levels of use typically referred to as zones. The A zone is where the shotgun is a truly devastating weapon. It's measured from the muzzle out to where the buckshot pattern stays together so that it makes one big ugly hole in the target; this hole can be covered with your open hand. Depending on the weapon/ammo combination, the A zone is out to around 7 to 10 yards.

The B zone is where the pellets have had time to spread out and develop a pattern but are still on target. This is the zone where the shotgun is most effective and can be exploited to the fullest. The weapon can be fired quickly with a flash sight picture and still make good hits. The B zone goes from about 10 to 20 yards. Inside 20 yards, the shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot is king, but if you need to engage a target at more than 20 yards and you only have 00 buck, the rifle is the way to go.

The C zone is the point at which the pellets spread out and some may be off the target. While still lethal, the loss of control of the pattern makes the use of buckshot unacceptable for law enforcement.

Advances in modern ammunition have a huge effect on how a shotgun patterns. Simply changing ammunition can reduce the spread of the pattern by 50 percent. Each gun and ammunition combination will also pattern differently. It is important that the gun be patterned using the same ammunition that is carried on duty so that an officer can be certain of how the gun will perform in combat.
/snip/
 
While I don't think that harder slugs like Brenneke's would be such a great idea, I don't really see where the soft lead Forster slugs would be such a bad idea (certainly no worse than 00 or 000 buckshot). However, if one is going with a single projectile anyway, I don't really see where a slug loaded shotgun has much advantage over a rifle with carefully chosen ammunition (JHP's out of my Marlin 45-70 would seem just as good or better in a handier and easier shooting package).
 
JHP's out of my Marlin 45-70 would seem just as good or better in a handier and easier shooting package

I would certainly think so. One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.
 
One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.

What difference does it make if the barrel is shorter?
 
A longer barrel means more velocity, because it provides a longer time for the load to be accelerated by the expanding gases.
 
A longer barrel means more velocity, because it provides a longer time for the load to be accelerated by the expanding gases.

According to what I have read, this is not true in a shotgun because the barrel is likely to be at least 18" long.
 
Because the "30 turkey barrel on my 1100 is kind of hard to maneuver with inside the house.

My 28'' field barrel isnt that much different, and I feel comfortable using it for HD.

Yet Im not going to be the rare person trying to clear the house if I hear a noise. Ill be bunkering down with my family behind me, waiting for him to kick down the bedroom door.
 
Quote:
One of the advantages of slugs out of a shorter barrel shotgun is that they will not travel much past 150 yards till the drop has them in the dirt.
What difference does it make if the barrel is shorter?
Actually the reasoning is in valid... You first say the advantage of a slug out of a short barrel will drop then you say the reason is your 30 inch barrel is too long for in the house... which is it?:confused: And I think that the slug will drop sooner from a 30 inch barrel as I think that it is longer than it takes to reach max velocity so it may actually be going slower than from a 20-22 incher... But, as usual, I could well be wrong.
Brent
 
I think that "30 is about the maximum before the drag from the barrel would slow the round down, although I could be wrong. Being a shorter barrel does not make the round fly a shorter distance, unless it is really short (NFA short), merely makes it more handy for HD, IMO. I think the real issue is this, luckily we have so many people to help out with that.
 
I just bought some "pitbull" rounds. A slug sitting a-top 6 #00 buck pellets!
Best of both worlds. The shot pellets must rob some of the velocity from the slug, and the spread inside home distances should be more than average because of the pellets being crammed behind the slug are gonna wanna get from behind it. So now he's getting a massive penatrating hit, and a spread load hit around that wound all at once. Nasty. I sure wouldnt want that done to me.

what say you?
 
Numerous threads on birdshot and it's ineffectiveness. I won't rehash here. If you care enough to educate yourself, the search button is yours.
 
birdshot and it's ineffectiveness
and thats why i use slugs,you will never hear of ineffectiveness.Whats the difference in say a .45 or .357 and a shotgun slug other than the size of your lead.All are single pieces of lead and no one complains.
 
Numerous threads on birdshot and it's ineffectiveness.

Based upon anecdotes. In reality, against a human target at home defense range, ANY 12 gauge shell is almost certainly going to be lethal.

killoften, I believe those are often referred to as "buck and ball" loads, mixing a slug with shot. They were popular for use at short range as far back as the Revolutionary War.
 
I don't think any jury would convict someone of a crime if he fired in defense of his life and home at a home invader inside his house, regardless that his slug exited his home and injured or killed someone else. I think most people would understand that the real criminal who caused it was the criminal who broke in. There may be a few people who get off by being common scolds who would say otherwise, but unless you were unlucky enough to be represented by a public defender, your lawyer would probably quickly get rid of those from your jury.

I for one ,would be willing to join in with a political effort to try to remove from office any over-reaching District Attorney who attempted to prosecute a citizen on this basis.
 
Criminally, you probably wouldn't be held liable.
Civilly, you would be a pauper for the rest of your life.
Civil court has a whole different set of rules.
 
If you want to use a solid projectile for home defense, you better tone it down a bit and get a 30 carbine with hollow points, or a 45 colt carbine, or a 44 magnum carbine and load hollow points. A 12 guage slug has way too much mass, speed and penetration for me to even consider using it unless it was the last resort. There are far more practical options for home defense. And even if you discarged in self defense, any bystander injurry due to the use of a slug will not be looked at favorably.. Personally, I think that would be irresponsible and hard to defend in court. Lawyers can twist anything you did into some evil intent. Buckshot is debatable and birdshot, defensible in court. Gee, I just grabbed my pheasant hunting gun to investigate crashing outside and this nut burst into the room so I gave hime a load of birdshot to the chest to protect myself. With a slug a slick lawyer might argue your actions were cruel and unusual and irresponsibly endangered bystanders. Intent may be perceived very differently depending on what load you use. The question is was it justiafiable to 12 in the jurry....
 
Back
Top