Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD

Are these the winchester HP rounds or..

the sabots using HP pistol bullets like Hornady?

Just the mass of the slug is good for HD, either the standard Forster style or the Brenneke.

Is there other residences nearby then may want to consider using the various buckshot, like #4 for close-up and 00 for 40 yds??

Explain terrrain & house lay-out, for more understanding from us.
 
A slug is going to over penetrate like crazy. That's fine if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is down the road a piece. Not so good if you live in the suburbs. I live in a housing tract and really like my neighbors so I load my shotgun (12ga) so that the first 2 rounds up (last in the mag) will be #4 buckshot. #4 will ruin a bad guy's day when hit from 10-15 feet but will not likely go through him. A miss will penetrate a wall, the room behind it and possibly the interior wall behind that but won't have much energy left. That means that the sweet little old lady next door is safe. A neighbor in an apartment wouldn't be as lucky.

The next 5 up are 00 buck just in case. If the first two haven't stopped the threat then I can escalate lethality, penetration, and the risk of over penetration. I keep few slugs handy for punching through walls and furniture but won't reach for them unless specifically needed..
 
A slug is going to over penetrate like crazy. That's fine if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is down the road a piece. Not so good if you live in the suburbs. I live in a housing tract and really like my neighbors so I load my shotgun (12ga) so that the first 2 rounds up (last in the mag) will be #4 buckshot. #4 will ruin a bad guy's day when hit from 10-15 feet but will not likely go through him. A miss will penetrate a wall, the room behind it and possibly the interior wall behind that but won't have much energy left. That means that the sweet little old lady next door is safe. A neighbor in an apartment wouldn't be as lucky.
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*sigh*

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.

What I have seen is that a 12 GA slug at under 60 feet with a COM hit results in target down nearly ever single time, the chance of the threat getting back up any time soon is very slim. They are exceptions. But two rounds will eliminate the exceptions.

So in answer to your question, yes it is an excellent tool for that purpose.
 
I choose buckshot for HD just to mitigate the risk of penetrating multiple walls. If you can hit the BG with buck, you can hit them with the slug. The slug is going to do the job of stopping the threat real well. The only time buck would out perform slug is if your POI is a non lethal location on the body. If it were to pass thru and not hit vitals or bone than the buck may have out performed as it may spread enuff for one or more shot may have found a vital organ or major bone system.
Brent
 
Ive never seen any pictures or range reports with a HP slugs expansion, but whether its HP or not, its going to do tons of damage.

I dont think it really matters. The HP might mushroom well but its still a brutal 1oz piece of lead getting shot at [around] 1600fps.

Just the sound of that should make a BG cringe!
 
Jersey,
P1010932-1.jpg

This isn't a scientific test... It is just a slug recovered from a pine tree me and Junior cut down with shot guns... the pic is of a 12 gauge 1 oz from a 2 3/4 inch shell... As you see it did deform and a hunk did part ways... the little dot in the center is a 7 1/2 shot pellet... And I agree... even if it don't mushroom... It is gonna leave a mark!
I like to think of it as "When your projectile is weighed in ounces rather than grains... it is a formidable choice"...
Brent
 
Great pic, Hogdogs! I cant tell you how long Ive been waiting to see a HP slug after impact.

Thanks a lot for sharing the picture! And your quote made me chuckle, youre so right.
 
*sigh*

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.
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I hope you aren't advocating the use of high caliber rounds without consideration of what's behind your target. While it might be a rare occurance, I'd like to hope that's due to the foresight home defenders have put into their selection of ammunition according to their particular geography. *I* don't want to be the first line on someone's "Overpenetration casualty" google search result.

[edit: HAHA!! Ok, I did just google "Overpenetration causalty" and it turns out I AM the first line in results.]
 
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I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.
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So how many innocent neighbors have to die unnecessarily for you to consider their lives relevant? The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safety of everyone down range of the bad guy. If there are people behind a bad guy it's simply irresponsible to ignore the fact that a 500gr slug moving 1300-1600fps is going to be a hazard to neighbors when their are equally effective alternatives.
 
I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them.
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No doubt the odds of hitting someone are very low, but I would be *extremely* upset just to find a slug somewhere in my house and a nice big hole in the wall resulting from my neighbor unwisely using slugs for HD when there are much better alternatives (better not only for less risk of over-penetration, but from the standpoint of a higher likelihood of hitting the BG). Stick with buckshot - and I haven't yet decided if #4 is a good starter round or not. But the almost universal opinion is NOT to use slugs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm - near bottom of page

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/13945-slugs-vs-buck-shot-home-defense.html

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm - middle of page
 
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But the almost universal opinion is NOT to use slugs.

Never talked to Louis Awerbuck about defensive shotgun ammo, I see.

lpl
 
Nah, he won't talk to me unless I am waving some $$$

Have you ever asked?
===================

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Shotguns+For+Home+Defense?packedargs=pagenum=2
Shotguns For Home Defense
Here's how to choose and use the most effective tool for stopping an attack.
By Dave Spaulding
Posted: 10-31-06
/snip/
What about slugs for home defense? Many are concerned about the overpenetration potential of a projectile that is weighed in ounces instead of grains. At one time I would have recommended against slugs, but I've had a lot of conversations with wildlife conservation officers across the Midwest who investigate accidental shootings during hunting season. They tell me that shotgun slugs don't overpenetrate the human torso like many think. Quite often, these soft lead slugs flatten out and stay in the body or are found just beyond the body--not always, mind you, but more often than many think.

Anti-personnel, hollowpoint slugs made for the military and police communities are an excellent choice for home defense and are proven man-stoppers in a large number of actual shooting incidents.
/snip/
-------------------------------------------
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/07/firearms-recommendations-for-home.html
Wednesday, July 9, 2008
Firearm recommendations for home defense, Part 2
/snip/
However, FTI [Firearms Tactical Institute- lpl] believes that slugs are a poor home defense ammo choice because of the over-penetration problem. I respectfully disagree. If someone's heavy-set or obese, or wearing thick winter clothing, buckshot may not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs or nerve centers: so I personally recommend slugs as a very viable choice, provided that you can be accurate with them. (We'll deal with training and practice tomorrow). I'm prepared to live with the risk of over-penetration in the interests of winning the fight, which to me is a higher priority. /snip/
--------------------------------------------

I'm not about to say that anyone HAS to use slugs for defensive roles. But for someone who has considered their own situation carefully, slugs might be a reasonable choice for defensive use. There are some folks who have done their own analysis and decided that slugs do have a place in the ammunition selection kept available for their defensive shotguns. Other folks decide differently. As with most anything inside the bounds of safety and effectiveness, there isn't really any wrong decision to be made- just different decisions to fit the needs and circumstances of different people. The 'almost universal decision' is better said- make your own decision based on your own circumstances.

lpl
 
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Anti-personnel, hollowpoint slugs made for the military and police communities are an excellent choice for home defense and are proven man-stoppers in a large number of actual shooting incidents.
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No argument with them being man-stoppers, that is *if* you hit the BG with *every* shot. I guess if I was Louis Awerbuck I wouldn't have to worry about that, but I'm not.


Some more to think about - the slug penetrated all the way through TWELVE layers of sheet rock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
 
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Ok, I did just google "Overpenetration causalty" and it turns out I AM the first line in results
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Don't say I didn't warn you. :p
So how many innocent neighbors have to die unnecessarily for you to consider their lives relevant?
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See arguments like this don't hold much water with me. I consider it on par with the reasoning that .50 calibers can down an airliner. Sure a .50 caliber rifle could down an airliner but it has never actually happened and the probability of someone being able to do it is extremely low. A series of improbable events would have to occur simultaneously (1-your house broken into, 2-the bad guy standing in the same line of fire as your neighbor, 3- The line of fire being including a penetrable wall or window 4- etc, etc.). Patrick Flanigan would have a tough time making such a shot.

The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safety of everyone down range of the bad guy.
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By the same logic would you not shoot to protect yourself on the street, knowing that you don't have a safe backstop? What about a shopping mall or a school? No safe backstop there.

But what it really comes down to is this:

As with most anything inside the bounds of safety and effectiveness, there isn't really any wrong decision to be made- just different decisions to fit the needs and circumstances of different people. The 'almost universal decision' is better said- make your own decision based on your own circumstances.
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And that about says it all. :cool:
 
I keep the magazine full of 00 buckshot. Side saddle has three additional buckshots and two slugs. Not that I doubt seven buckshots can handle the situation, but it is nice to have the slugs should the need arise for them.

Overpenetration is obviously something to worry about. But in the heat of it I do not think that will be the thought on you mind. If it comes down to you or him and an unknown backstop should the slug leave the confines of you house, I think most of us would pull the trigger.

A perfect backstop is not always there, and try as a shooter might, innocent bystanders do get hurt by stray bullets. In a shoot out, the best way to leave bystanders unharmed is to have no bystanders in the first place.
 
See arguments like this don't hold much water with me. I consider it on par with the reasoning that .50 calibers can down an airliner. Sure a .50 caliber rifle could down an airliner but it has never actually happened and the probability of someone being able to do it is extremely low. A series of improbable events would have to occur simultaneously (1-your house broken into, 2-the bad guy standing in the same line of fire as your neighbor, 3- The line of fire being including a penetrable wall or window 4- etc, etc.).
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A miss with a slug traveling 1600fps can penetrate 6-9 walls. Pray to god that I'm never on the jury if you miss and hit a neighbor. Not because stuff happens, because stuff can happen, accidents can happen - but because you choose to recklessly disregard the safety of your neighbors.
 
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