Hollow point ammo... And why heavier are more consistent

street lab

In the 9x19 I carry my +P+ 115g or 124g ammo.

In 38 Special (snub; wife's) I load a modest velocity load using the 140g XTP-HP.

In 357 Magnum I load the R-P conventional 125g JHP to 1400+.

In 40 S&W I load a high velocity 135g Nosler JHP. Same in 400 CorBon.

In 41 AE I load the 180g Speer Gold Dot (yes they used to make them) at 1030fps.

In 44 Magnum I don't care; whatever's in the gun (normally a 240g LSWC at 876fps).

In 45 ACP I load the non-bonded 230g Golden Saber to 815fps.


I load these like that due to my experience.
No lab. Just guessing :cool:
 
Sorry, not going down a worm hole. Its off topic at this point.
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It appears "the lab people" addressed your complaint several years ago:

Most physicians knowledgeable in wound trauma believe that adequate penetration depth is the most important single property in handgun ammunition. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987. Unfortunately, this assumption has often been interpreted very simplistically (i.e., 12.1 Inches of penetration is good, but 11.9 inches of penetration is no good), but the real situation is more complicated. The problem is the possibility that the bullet will require an unusually large penetration to reach vital structures well inside the body. This can occur when the bullet must traverse non-critical tissue; e.g., the extended arm of an assailant aiming his handgun, and/or an unusual bullet path angle in the torso, and/or an unusually fat or beefy individual. The probability of needing this extra penetration is a judgment call, but most people believe it is a significant factor and much more important than the relatively modest increase in expanded diameter achieved by reducing penetration depth (e.g., approximately 30% increase in expanded bullet diameter is achieved by designing to an 8 inch penetration depth rather than 12 inches). This is the reason the professional wound ballistics community specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate. The suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 12.5 inches and less than 14.0 inches. Even at the limit of minimum value of this range (12.5 inches) and the limiting value of standard deviation (0.6) in Section 6.1.1, about 80% of the penetration will be greater than 12 inches and essentially all will be greater than 11 inches. This bare gelatin test provides a lower limit on penetration because most shootings will involve at least some clothing; slightly less expansion and slightly deeper penetration can be expected in typical service use.

-- IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification; Wound Ballistics Review Volume 3 Number 3, 1998 (See - http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm​

So, yes, while 9mm 115gr +P+ and .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP performed well years ago (the relatively crude bullet designs, by today's standards, were propelled at high enough velocity to expand more reliably than other bullets) their terminal performance (and wound trauma produced) have been surpassed by modern bullets that perform better and more reliably across a wider range of commonly encountered circumstances.
 
There are simply too many variables to make sense of all this with math. While ballistic gelatin isn't perfect, it is probably the best predictor of a rounds effectiveness.

If you are comparing rounds of the same caliber, then bullet weight is a factor and all else being equal heavier will penetrate more. All things being equal faster will expand more.

But when comparing bullets of different calibers all bets are off. There are lots of 124 gr 9mm loads that will easily out penetrate 230 gr 45 loads. All things being equal a longer bullet in relation to diameter will penetrate deeper. Not always the heavier bullet. If you compare 2 bullets of equal weight, but different calibers, the smaller caliber will almost always penetrate deeper. You have to move up considerably in weight to make a larger caliber bullet match the smaller bullets penetration.

But things are never equal. None of this even touches bullet construction. Velocity can have odd effects as well. Most bullets have a velocity range where they work well. Too fast or too slow and an otherwise great bullet could fail. I know of no mathematical way to predict how they will react. You just have to start shooting bullets into stuff and see what happens.
 
... This is the reason the professional wound ballistics community specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate ...
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The history of professional organizations researching the problem is interesting. The Immigration and Naturalization Service (Border Patrol) standards called for 9-inches of penetration for roughly the same reasons stated above.

This was at a time that the FBI was still clamoring for "a bigger bullet", and not paying much attention to any actual science.

All of the values over 8-inch penetration are predicated upon the notion that you want more than enough, "just to be sure", but not so much that you are just being ridiculous.
 
The history of professional organizations researching the problem is interesting. The Immigration and Naturalization Service (Border Patrol) standards called for 9-inches of penetration for roughly the same reasons stated above.
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John Jacobs, the guy in charge of USBP ammunition procurement at the time, was an advocate of the "energy transfer" theory of incapacitation and the 1998 ammunition specification he promulgated reflected his personal beliefs, which was based largely on anecdotal evidence. See - "INS National Firearms Unit Ballistic Gelatin Test Protocol"

(Jacobs also authored chapter 25, "Ammunition Evaluation and Selection: US Border Patrol, 1970-2000", in the 2001 Marshall-Sanow book, "Stopping Power".)

It's interesting to note that CBP currently issues ammunition that meets FBI terminal performance specifications. Jacobs' INS-NFU protocol was scrapped after he and his acolytes moved on.
 
cohoskip: said:
Our military opted for the lighter faster instead of the heavier slower...
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The military doesn't have much choice when it comes to the weight and speed of issued handgun rounds since the specifications for bullet weight (108-128 grains, inclusive), energy (542-814 Joules), and pressure (230-265 MPa) are set forth under STANAG4090.
 
cough

357 SIG and its 125g JHP......oddly, a recent development, and proving itself on people.

Kinda reminds me of a fast 124g from the 9x19, or that old tired 357 Mag load.
Hmmmm.....ay?
 
Our military opted for the lighter faster instead of the heavier slower...
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I don't think I can agree with this, although it's 23 grains lighter and about 100-125 fps faster than the 147 grain, the 124 grain projectile in 9mm is not on the lighter side of the bullet choice spectrum.
 
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I mean "When properly loaded...."

The 124g is in the perfect range of 115g (exemplified by the numerous +P+ choices in 9x19) up to 140g (the Hornady XTP-HP, and the old conventional R-P S-JHP) for stopping people rapidly.
"Stopping".

9x19
9x21
9xetc
38 Super
356TSW
38 Special
357 SIG
357 Magnum
357 Maximum
357/38etc

I also include the .400" 135g JHPs from 10mm bores....
 
I shoot revolvers. I have shot semi's.

In my semi, I shoot Remington L9MM1 ammuniton, and it's counterpart, L9MM3.
The ammunition was devised, as the company told me, in the '70's, and has been working in semi's without any problems, since. Why change that?

In my revolvers, I shoot .38 Special 148 grain full wadcutters, or 158 grain semi-wadcutters, which the revolver in caliber was designed and bore-sighted for. I do not ascribe to using any hollow points, from any company, period. Elmer Keith did not have any gel tests with his semi-wadcutter bullet designs, because they either brought meat home, or did not. Lastly, it was the lowly 158 grain round nose lead bullet, bouncing around and causing all sorts of internal trauma, that dispatched Lee Harvey Oswald, not a hollow point bullet.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Whenever I read posts like this, I like to read them out loud, doing an impression of Festus from Gunsmoke. ;) You have to throw in a "Math-yooooo" every once in a while to keep it real.
 
Whenever I read posts like this, I like to read them out loud, doing an impression of Festus from Gunsmoke. You have to throw in a "Math-yooooo" every once in a while to keep it real.
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:)
 
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