HK P7M8......Worth the Price?

Therapydude

New member
I'm seriously thinking of purchasing a new HK P7M8. Is it worth $1000+? I handled one a while back and really liked it (love the speed and simplicity of the grip safety). Only drawback I see is that the grip is a bit large. Is it too big for concealed carry? I'd appreciate any responses from P7 owners or those knowledgeable with this handgun. Thanks!
 
I owned an H&K P7 about 15 years ago. It was the original PSP version without the heat guard inside the trigger guard, and with the magazine release at the base of the grip. I think I paid about $500 for it, new-in-box. I wish I hadn't sold it. While I really liked the squeeze cocker, it required constant attention as far as cleaning was concerned. Unless you are getting one for the "cool" factor (it is very cool), I'd suggest something a bit more practical. I also consider the cost of the extras when buying handguns, such as spare magazines. I can get new-in-wrap Glock magazines for $15 a pop. I bet the P7 magazines are expensive.
 
I love the P7M8. It is my first choice as a carry gun and is easily concealable as it is flat like a 1911. (I am 5'7" 160 lbs.) Grip is not really that big, but specialized leather is required. Very accurate and fast to deploy. If you live in a humid climate you may want to look for a refurbised P7 and refinish it, as the stock bluing goes away pretty fast and rust will start. I have seen refurbs for as low as $599. Do a search if you want more info. Below is a picture of my P7. Refurbed, paid $650. $140 for the Hard Chrome job and $100 for Meprolight nite sites. Yes it has a slightly visible mill mark but it is an excellent firearm and I saved $500 over equvalent new.
View


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Aloha!
John
 
I have owned 2 P7M8's. The first one I used as a duty weapon when I was a police officer (years ago,)the first 9mm in the area... The second one I got at a good price just recently. The is no finer piece of machinery made. Excellent craftmanship, that's why the price. It is dependable and for it's size very accurate. Because of the gas lockup you get a few more fps out of the short barrel.

Downside... Few holsters, weighs a ton and not a real carry weapon compared to the current tupperware guns. If you want it for carry, I don't think so. I tried to carry the last one I got and went back to the Glock after a day... The grip you would get used to. A great gun, but some restrictions compared to the others out there...

Gary
 
Mags for the P7 are pretty available at $45 or so. Sometimes less sometimes more. I have 4 mags and I am happy. If you need a drawer full of mags, yeah, they are a little expensive. One of these days I will buy a second M8 and have 6 mags total. Can't see needing more than that.

I don't have a Glock, don't hate them but I don't need one either. The P7M8 is heavier, by a lot, and its dirty. Cleaning it is a 2 hour job. Would I trade it for a Glock? No
 
Therapydude; If you're "seriously" thinking about it then I probably can't talk you out of it...Are they nice pistols? Of course they are. I had a H&K USP45 and it was one fine pistol. Is the P7M8 worth a $1,000? Absolutely not! If money is not an issue then- Go for it! I wouldn't buy a $1,000 9mm pistol just like I wouldn't buy a $2,000 1911. Just my thoughts, J. Parker
 
"HK P7M8...Worth the Price?"

NO...

Very nice weapon, very well made weapon, very accurate but, like all HK products, accessories, etc., it is WAY over priced including the inflated price of extra magazines.

There are many handguns available today that don't cost $1000 that will serve the owner far better than the P7M8.

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Jim - NRA Life Member

www.geocities.com/jimc_07874/home.html
 
Therapydude,

MY EXTREAMLY biased opinion is that the P7M8 is well worth its high price. A refurbished P7M8 with night sites is my primary carry and IDPA gun. It fully replaced my Glock 19 (which was and is a great pistol)in the early days of this year and I have never looked back. Bear with me here for a minute.

In it's favor, I would point out:
- Greater inherent accuracy than any browning-type action pistol due to it's fixed barrel
- Very compact (flat and short)
- Extremely simple controls
- Very clean form (i.e. minimal protrusions to snag)
- Highly reliable. While I have occasionally gotten feed jams in my 19, I have never, NEVER been able to induce a jam of any kind in my P7M8 (3824 rounds since mid Feb when I started keeping a log, probably twice that number since I bought the pistol). It feeds and fires anything I have ever put through it.
- Very safe (esp if dropped)
- Very durable
- Easy to clean once you know how (I timed myself the other day. 20 minutes at a leisurely pace)

For the sake of complete disclosure, I should also point out
- They're EXPENSIVE
- They're unusual. It's hard to find leather & other accessories. For leather, there are VERY good options, just not a lot of them.
- They're probably about to go out of production (HK seems to have decided to get out of making steel guns and I can't blame them)
- They get HOT when firing for prolonged periods

That's the short version.

The bottom line seems to be that this pistol costs @ twice as much as other very high quality competitors (a Glock or a Sig or a Beretta is more than adequate for most of our needs). I got around that by buying a refurb (@ $620) which is still the cost of a NIB Sig. Also, I'm not judging this gun "against" other pistols. I'm judging it on its own. I now have two refurb P7M8s and a P7 PSP bough NIB. I would grab a NIB P7M8 for under $1100. I really enjoy the P7 and plan on keeping it on my hip for a long time to come.

Feel free to e-mail me with any specific questions.

Hope this helps a bit.


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Best,
- Jawper
 
I recently sold a p7m13 with 4 13rd mags on gunhouse.com for $1400. It was in 95% cond. I loved the gun but bought it long before the ban for $450 used with all 4 mags. I was just testing the water when the $1400 bid can in and could not pass it up.
Hope this helps, Amos
 
Purchased a refurb a couple of months ago and have been pleased with the gun. It is VERY accurate, easy to point and operate.

I must say that the squeeze cocker is a great safety feature. No, I don't think that my Glocks will go off at the wrong time, but if you are thinking of carrying the gun, it is a great feature. There are a few good holsters according to the experts on this and other boards. My http://personalpages.tds.net/~delfatti/ should be here within a month. The P7 is a very dirty gun. I bought mine for $699 plus the damn tax. Just buy the thing and let your maid, or manservant clean the gun.
 
I took my brand new P7M8 to the range yesterday. Here are a few comments after 2 boxes of ammo.

1. Its heavy.

2. It heats up REALLY fast considering its an 8 shot weapon and I forgot my single stack loader at home! I spend alot of time reloading the thing. After 2 boxes of ammo, the gun was HOT such that raising your trigger finger and touching the slide area was a VERY BAD idea. OUCH!

3. I can put more (up to 8) 9mm lead into a small print faster with this weapon than any of the other 9mm's I own! (Glock 17, SIG 226) I think the weight of the gun allows extremely fast, accurate rapid fire.

4. I have small hands such that my thumb can't reach the slide release on most handguns. The slide release on the P7 is by tightning your grip. Very cool, very fast, and you can realistically reload and start firing again without moving the gun from its target.

5. Since I have more money then sense (i.e. I HAD TO HAVE A SOCOM INSTEAD OF THE TACTICAL, etc.) the P7 is hella cool.


OK, now to answer your question!

YES, it is worth the price if you have 1000+ to spend on this 9mm handgun. I just love HK weapons, so 1600+ for a SOCOM and 1000+ for a P7 are worth the price.

NO, it is NOT worth the price if you have 1000+ to spend on YOUR ONLY 9mm handgun.
Glock 17, SIG 226, or the HK USP would be a better choice if your budget stopped with this purchase.
 
What jawper said.

It is my opinion that the P7M8 is simply the overall-best 9mm handgun extant, combining excellent design, excellent materials and contruction-fitting, compact size and flat profile, very high accuracy-precision, ease of use, speed of presentation, speed of reloading, and good safety all into a single unexcelled package.

Yes, it's "only" a 9mm.
Yes, it's perhaps a little heavy for its size, as it's all steel.
Yes, the magazine capacity is only 8 rounds.
Yes, it's expensive.
Yes, it gets hot with extended firing.
Yes, it's more laborious to clean than a Glock.
Yes, it's not as easy to find GOOD carry gear for it (though Lou Alessi, Matt DelFatti, and Ken Null will provide all you could need in this regard).

If the former benefits are more important to you than the latter negative points (they certainly are to me), then it's worth the price.
I thought so when I bought my first one, which was also my first handgun, in 1985 for $515, and I still think so, having bought another one recently for my wife.

Has the cost of living doubled in 15 years? I'm not sure, but I still think that the P7M8 is worth its cost.
Also, I wouldn't be too surprised if H&K phases them out of production soon, as the company seems to be emphasizing the USP-polymer line way out of proporton to the P7M8, and their current catalogue no longer even lists the PSP or P7M13. Get 'em while you still can!

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"Potius sero quam nunquam."
 
YES. They are worth every cent.

If CCW is your factor, the PSP is what you want. It's thinner and lighter than the M8 but with a heel release.

I bought my PSP several months ago, used, hard chromed by MetaLife with three hard chromed magazines for $699 from an Ohio dealer.

I love the 9mm round. Effective and affordable to train with.

If you are patient, used ones do pop up.

The HKP7 is a great 9mm especially for carry you just have to find the right holster for it. I like the BTW Insider holster by JagWear. You only see my clip.

I carry it regularly but I carry Glocks too!

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The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG

[This message has been edited by jtduncan (edited August 28, 2000).]
 
jawper:

This is a tangential topic, but could you share with us your routine for cleaning your P7M8 (or any other pistol, for that matter) in 20 minutes?

Thanks.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Skorzeny,

Geeze, hope I'm not doing something wrong. Here's the general procedure I'm using.

After insuring the pistol is unloaded:

- Disassemble
- Spray MPro7 into bore and set frame assembly aside
- Wipe slide internals with patch lightly soaked in MPro7
- Using same patch, clean gas piston
- Using low lint cotton tipped swabs, clean slide internals and breach face (sometimes hit breach face with a brush first)
- Wipe slide internals and gas piston with patch lightly soaked in Miltec
- Wipe slide internals and gas piston with dry patch
- Place small dollop of Tetra Gun Grease on internal slide grooves (what's the proper name for the groove the slide rails ride in?) and spread evenly with cotton swab
- Set slide aside

- Insert piston tube cleaning tool (let's assume we've shot 200+ rounds) and scrape the detritus out of piston tube
- Insert piston tube brush and actively brush out
- Run bore brush through bore vigorously @ two dozen times.
- Run patch soaked in MPro7 through bore
- Run dry patch through bore (patch usually comes out clean, if not, repeat)
- Run patch lightly soaked in Miltec through bore
- Run dry patch through bore
- Wipe down frame in similar manner to slide notes above (Every 500 or 1000 rounds, remove the grip panels and thoroughly wipe and relube the internal mechanism)
- Place small dollop if Tetra Gun Grease on slide rails and spread evenly with cotton swab
- Reassemble pistol

- Place small drop of Miltec on end of barrel
- Cycle slide multiple times to spread lubricants
- Function check and go home

OK, what am I missing/doing wrong?

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Best,
- Jawper

[This message has been edited by jawper (edited August 29, 2000).]
 
Nothing wrong as far as I can see. More power to you if you can accomplish this in 20 mins. and be happy with the results! I usually shoot my P7 and 228 at the same time and I am cleaning for a couple hours at least after, including magazines also, etc...and they look as new after doing so. I guess me just sloooo.... :)
 
jawper:

That's what I thought. But I am amazed that it takes you only 20 minutes to accomplish all the tasks. It takes me easily 40 minutes to an hour per pistol.

BTW, do you use MPro-7 to clean the breech face and the internals of the frame as well? Or do you simply wipe "dry" with cotton swabs and patches (and a brush in the case of the breech face)?

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited August 30, 2000).]
 
Skorzeny,

After reading your comments and MPower's, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm imagining the time. I usually stand at the bench and shoot the breeze with the range master as I casually clean. Perhaps 40 minutes is more accurate and the one time I actually timed myself I was rushing. Anyway, it only "feels" like 20 minutes. :)

As for the breach face & internals, I usually just use a dry patch and/or cotton swabs. I'm a bit freaked out about leaving solvent on the breachface so that motivates me to stay dry. When I remove the grips, I find that a dry patch (and swabs for the harder to reach areas) seems to get the gunk out. If I begin to wipe with a Miltec patch and the patch becomes soiled, I'll get in there and scrub more thoroughly. I've never used MPro7 in those working since I didn't want to loose track of where it was flowing and degrease some unseen important area.

Thoughts from your end would be greatly appreciated.


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Best,
- Jawper
 
jawper:

My procedure is similar to yours, for what it's worth (since I am a rank amateur in these matters).

I do use a bit of MPro-7 on the breech face, but I do not spray it. I merely use a dampened patch. Then, I use a toothbrush to get as much of the "cake" off as possible and finally wipe dry. I generally do not use any solvent for the frame, particularly in the trigger area (because I do not want to degrease anything in that area either), but I do use a bit of dampened patch on some areas of the frame away from the trigger area.

It just feels wrong to have even light amount of firing residue on the frame, but in the future, I am thinking about using MPro-7 only inside the bore and the slide, and using a dry toothbrush, Q-Tips and patches for the frame.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Here's how I clean my P7M8 in approx. 35 minutes:
1)Disassemble pistol and remove grip panels
2)Flood lower frame assembly with Hoppes #9 and let soak for 10 minutes or so. You can either 1)use a small container, fill with Hoppes #9 and use a hanger to keep pistol submerged, but off the bottom (where the gunk settles out) or use a spray bottle to drench the frame.
2A) clean slide during 10 minute soak of frame.
3)Get out the garden hose and hose off the frame assembly. Keep pressure reasonable to prevent damage to small parts.
4)Use an air compressor with air drier/filter in place to blow dry frame assembly
5)Flood frame assembly with Rem Oil and repeat air compressor treatment to remove excess oil. Result is a light sheen of RemOil on all parts.
6)Clean barrel, gas cylinder, mags in traditional way.

This method takes me less than 45 minutes and works great. Remember, these pistols are designed for SEVERE duty. A garden hose is not cruel and unusual punishment if you blow dry the pistol and immediately apply oil.

Also, for those who complain about heat build-up at the range, take a 1-gallon plastic jug of water with you. If pistol gets too hot, soak an old towel with water, and wrap the pistol up in it. Add water to towel (with pistol still wrapped in it) as needed. Cools off in no time. Wipe outside dry, shake pistol a few times to remove excess water and recommence firing. These pistols are TOUGH and are designed for abuse beyond your wildest dreams. A water cooling won't hurt it.

For those lacking a desire to try the "tough love" approach above and still not happy cleaning for 2 hours, just swab out the barrel and gas cylinder, oil the external surfaces and call it done. About every 1500 rounds, pull the panels and clean as above. Worried about reliability? Recall the test performed by Massad Ayoob in his excellent book "The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense". Ayoob took HK P7 #51136 and decided to see how many rounds were needed to render the gas system inoperable. He allowed only oiling of external surfaces to avoid rust, but no cleaning or disassembly. The results:

"At around the two thousandth shot, the slide operation became noticeably rough. Nonetheless, the pistol would still feed and fire without a hitch. Shortly before the 4,500th cartridge was fired without cleaning, we observed two failures of the slide to lock open on an empty magazine. Knowing that this was the first warning of a gas port sufficiently clogged to impair functioning, we called off the test at that time......"

The book then shows a picture of the disassembled P7 pistol (boy, talk about a 'dirty' picture.....) with the following caption:

"This is the interior of the author's test HK P7 after it fired more than 4,000 factory rounds including hollow point without a single malfunction, without being stripped or cleaned. Author considers the P7 the most reliable police handgun ever made, finds performance of test gun typical of the great many he has seen and monitored in police service."

The body of the text continues:
"Unburned burned flakes of powder were noted throughout the parts. Carbon buildup resembled an engine that needed a valve job. Yet there had never been a single failure of the pistol to fire, eject the shell, rechamber, and fire again!
This level of reliability is phenomenal. I can think of no revolver I would expect to still be firing after 4,500 rounds without cleaning. In a recent test by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center using mixed .38 Special +P, +P+, and .357 ammo, all specimens of medium frame .357 revolver submitted for testing by the leading manufacturer were jamming or indeed had broken down by the time that number of rounds had been fired. It should be noted that no breakages occurred in the HK. Furthermore, operating pressures for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge it fired were around 32,000 Copper Units of Pressure, about the same as .357 Magnum and considerably more than the hottest .38 Special loads. In my opinion, the P7 has set a new standard for handgun reliability , revolver or autoloader."

And that is why the P7M8 costs $1,000 and is worth every single penny. In a world of compromise, some don't.

Quotes from "The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense" by Massad Ayoob, pp 44-45. Go here http://www.ayoob.com/cat2.html to order this or other excellent books by Ayoob.

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TRAVELLER, SHOULD YOUR ROAD LEAD YOU TO SPARTA, TELL THEM THAT YOU SAW US LYING HERE AS THE LAWS WILLED IT.

-Inscription on a Greek monument to Leonidas and his soldiers
 
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