History of the .38 SPL 158 Gr. LRN bullet

DG45 said:
I will not argue its "effectiveness" vs a .38 Special +P which is about 20% more powerful, but to say that the standard 38 Special round is not effective is strecthing things.
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The standard velocity .38 Special load is nothing to brag about. It's certainly powerful enough to be deadly, but not enough to quickly turn off a determined attacker. The advantage of the LSWC was that it cut a cleaner hole that bled faster and would cut muscle tissue (instead of sliding between strands of tissue).

Knight0334 said:
I dont know what make or mil-spec the ammo was that we issued for range and guard use, it all came out of bulk ammo cans.
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Milspec .38 Special used by the USAF was either 130gr FMJ "Ball" ammo (not the flat tip you see today) or the 158gr LRN "Lead" bullet. I think the USAF transitioned to the 130gr ball @830 fps in the mid/late 1950's because it was superior - compared to the LRN - against autobodies.

kraigwy said:
If I remember right, Chief Davis, LAPD required his officers to carry the 158 LRNs giving the only reason that if an officer was shot with his own gun he would have a better survival rate.
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I dunno if that was Chief Davis' rationale or not, but up through about 1973, this was the case. I think it was Reddin who prohibited use of the .357 cartridge as "overkill" in the urban LA areas. About '73-'74, LAPD started using a Winchester 146gr LSWC-HP +P as a duty load after several spectacular failure-to-stop incidents with LRN. There was some marginal improvements but they were more expensive. I think LAPD went back to issuing 158gr RNL but authorized a short list of "approved" ammo, including the 125gr Remington SJHP +P if officers wanted to buy their own.
 
LRN bullets have been around since cartridge guns were invented.
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Even before. I've dug many a "conical" pistol bullet up on a Civil War battlefield.

The first security quard job I had I was issued a Colt Official Police and six rounds of LRN ammo. I was told "Don't shoot yourself, or anyone else if you don't have to." End of training. Now get to work. I later turned that gun and the same ammo back in when I left the job. (I'd like to have that Colt now.)
 
Not much to add except that the 158 gr LRN was known as "the widow maker" because it made widows of police officers when it failed to stop the bad guy.
 
The LAPD NEVER issued (or allowed) hollowpoints until the very early 90's, when the Dept went to hollowpoints for all issued weapons. The LAPD issue load until the advent of the 125 gr +P SOFT POINT (Federal) in '82 or '83 was the Rem 158 gr high-speed LRN. Officers were never allowed to carry or purchase their own ammo- it was issued after qualification, twice a year (factory ammo qual was bi-annual, regular qual was bi-monthly, unless you shot the "Bonus Shoot", which was monthly). Officers could buy additional duty ammo from the LAPD Academy store (LAPRAAC), but that was it.
Bob
 
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OIF2,

I sit here properly corrected, thank you, Bob. It's been quite a while so it may have been LA Sheriff that I was thinking of or San Bernadino.

KyJim - Wasn't the old 200 grain LRN police load also called the widow-maker for similar reasons?
 
I'm not advocating the use of the .38 158 grain lead round nose as a defense loading.

However, I will always contend that lack of marksmanship had a lot to do with its mixed record of success as a defense/police bullet.

One or two 158 grain LRN to the sternum followed by one to the head, should nearly always do the trick.

Think about it, the only quality the 158 grain LRN lacks is good shape, it does not lack for penetration.

A LRN to the sternum beats a HP to the abdomen every time.

Shot placement is not an over used term, it combined with penetration, or the two things that matter most in the effectiveness of bullets. Bullet caliber/shape come in third.
 
Hi Bill
No sweat- fun to be here. I've read (and enjoyed) your posts on other Forums. I can remember the discussions from the old timers about the over-penetration problem of the 158 gr LRN hi-speed round... almost like 9mm ball. It was a killer, but not a stopper. One of the reasons the LAPD always stressed marksmanship. You were accountable for each and every round fired, good shooting or not. Different times.
Bob
 
KyJim - Wasn't the old 200 grain LRN police load also called the widow-maker for similar reasons?
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It may have been, though I only recall the name used with the 158 gr. LRN. I would think the 158 gr. bullet was more popular, though I can't speak with real authority. As you know, the fixed sight .38s were regulated for 158 gr. bullets.
 
Back in the day, it was always talked around that you could improve the the stopping power of a 38 Special 158 grain LRN bullet by cutting an X in the nose of the bullet. I never tried it myself and don't know if it works or not, but would like to know.
 
However, I will always contend that lack of marksmanship had a lot to do with its mixed record of success as a defense/police bullet.
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No, it's poor terminal ballistics. The 125 grain HP 357 mag load developed a very good reputation as a fight stopper despite.

1. .357 mag is harder to shoot accurately than a 38 due to extra recoil and muzzle blast.
2. It didn't penetrate as well.
3. It's performance was not as consistent as the 38 RN, it didn't always expand as it should, etc.

If it was an issue of marksmanship then the 125 grain .357 should have earned an even worse reputation. It didn't. Handgun hunters don't use RN bullets, they typicly use a SWC. Why? Because a RN gives good penetration, but very poor tissue disruption, meaning lost game.

Not to mention that life seldom gives you the opportunity for two to the chest and one to the head.
 
Good point about the 125 gr .357 round, "Crosshair". I saw more than one person shot with that round in LA (both Rem and Fed) and it was devastating. But don't underestimate marksmanship in a fight, either. Stopping power and marksmanship both are important. Remember that ANY pistol round can (and will) fail at times.
Bob
 
For all the statements of how bad a stopper the 158 grn round nose round was,I remember reading a post about a legendary police trooper (from a western or mid western state) that used this round to a very successful degree.

Anyone know who that trooper was?

And ,without question,my Smith Model 10 absolutely loves this round.

Supremely accurate using it.
 
DG45 said:
Back in the day, it was always talked around that you could improve the the stopping power of a 38 Special 158 grain LRN bullet by cutting an X in the nose of the bullet. I never tried it myself and don't know if it works or not, but would like to know.
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There were people who tried it. Doesn't really work all that well. You not only have to cut the X at the nose, but you have to make deep cuts in the RNL bullet. In essence, you're trying to make an expanding bullet that may fragment on impact. Most weren't cut deep enough and some that were failed in flight

Most of the JHP/JSP ammo built up through the early 80's had only about a 30% chance of actually expanding. All manner of tricks were tried, but the tehnology wasn't yet there.
 
As BillCA said cutting an X doesn't do it.
If you want to alter a round nose, cut the nose flat and bore a small hole down the center. You end up with a not so good hollow point that is supposedly better than the LRN.
Others have mentioned that placing the bullet in backwards will supposedly improve performance.

In the long run it is better to just buy quality self defense ammunition.
 
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