What is the general history of use for the 38 special 158 gr. Lead Round Nose bullet? How popular was this bullet in law enforcement? Was it popular as a defense round before hollow points? Stopping power? Was/Is it used often in 38 spl snubnose revolvers? Any information is appreciated.
History of the .38 SPL 158 Gr. LRN bullet
- Thread starter snub38
- Start date
Introduced in 1902 with the 158 RNL bullet. Colt came out with their version in 1909 with a flat point bullet. Later a high velocity version was made for large frame revolvers. While widely used by police and civilians it's performance was not all that good and finally the 357 replaced it for police use. Today the best for defence would be the 158 semi-wad cutter +P
bamaranger
New member
The .38 158 LRN has..
a dismal record as a stopper and a self defense round. It was a common LE load, likely up through the early-mid 60's, when Lee Juras and Super Vel began to change things.
They do look kinda neat protruding up close to the cylinder mouths I've always thought. Longer than a lighter JHP. I had a source for a while that was affordable and shot quite a few in .357 mid range loads and Marlin carbine as a utility/practice round.
Modern bullets have passed them up by a huge margin, and they are not considered SD loads by any means.
a dismal record as a stopper and a self defense round. It was a common LE load, likely up through the early-mid 60's, when Lee Juras and Super Vel began to change things.
They do look kinda neat protruding up close to the cylinder mouths I've always thought. Longer than a lighter JHP. I had a source for a while that was affordable and shot quite a few in .357 mid range loads and Marlin carbine as a utility/practice round.
Modern bullets have passed them up by a huge margin, and they are not considered SD loads by any means.
Any reason in particular for not using Hollowpoints? I agree that in a pinch LSWC are an adequate substitute or even any solid bullet with a flat point.
Caution: I've had some bad experience with Magtech LRN, heavy leading and hard/unseated primers. The ones I had actually turned molten at one point. It seems as though they were softer lead loaded to higher velocities than they should have been.
Caution: I've had some bad experience with Magtech LRN, heavy leading and hard/unseated primers. The ones I had actually turned molten at one point. It seems as though they were softer lead loaded to higher velocities than they should have been.
spacecoast
New member
For defense try to get the LSWCHP +P (HP is for Hollow Point), the Remington R38S12 is a good one. I actually found a box at Wal-Mart once.
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74795
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74795
Cheapshooter
New member
A little OT, but I just have to gloat a little. A neighbor teaches some kind of LE classes somewhere out west. After last years trip he came back with some "obsolete" ammo. They don't use revolvers any more and had this stuff left over. 2 cases (2000 rnds) Blazer 38 spcl +P 158 gr LSWCHP. He wanted $6.50/box. 
My only problem is I'm too nice a guy. I split the purchase with a good friend, each of us got 1 case.
My only problem is I'm too nice a guy. I split the purchase with a good friend, each of us got 1 case.A very brief history of .38 caliber ammo in one major city PD. (Baltimore)
• When I started in 1975, LRN 158 gr. From a S&W M10
• Around 1979, went to 158 gr lead SWC, +P
• A couple of years later, the 158 gr. LSWCHP +P (still from a model 10)
• Late 80’s – Glock 17 and low bid 147 gr. Subsonic
• Later to Glock 22 with Federal Tactical 165 gr. ammo
• Now – Glock 22 with Ranger T 180 gr.
I felt comfy with the LSWCHP and the Federal tactical. Less so with the LRN. Retired before the switch to the Winchester Rangers.
• When I started in 1975, LRN 158 gr. From a S&W M10
• Around 1979, went to 158 gr lead SWC, +P
• A couple of years later, the 158 gr. LSWCHP +P (still from a model 10)
• Late 80’s – Glock 17 and low bid 147 gr. Subsonic
• Later to Glock 22 with Federal Tactical 165 gr. ammo
• Now – Glock 22 with Ranger T 180 gr.
I felt comfy with the LSWCHP and the Federal tactical. Less so with the LRN. Retired before the switch to the Winchester Rangers.
LRN bullets have been around since cartridge guns were invented. The .38 Special arrived around 1899/1900 in both smokeless and blackpowder loadings. The 158gr LRN bullets arrived shortly afterwards [circa 1905-1909] and were considered the "standard" bullet for the cartridge for many years.
Police agencies issued the .38 LRN as their standard ammo for many agencies up through as late as 1968. Officers who supplied their own ammo often used a LSWC for it's reputation as being a better man stopper.
In the 30's, the 200gr LRN was offered in the .38 Special. But at only ~740 fps, it was anemic and unable to penetrate autobodies. But then, the 158gr was not much better either. The soft lead deformed too quickly on impact.
In the 1950's, the 158g LRN was cheap and easily available, making it the choice for issued ammo to police. Officers who could buy their own often purchased the 158gr LSWC loads for their reputation as a fight stopper.
In the 1970's, Lee Juras (Super-Vel Corp.) came out with very light bullets (110-125gr) at higher speeds to increase the potential for expansion. These worked somewhat better than standard loads, but were hard on the guns (many were essentially +P+ loads).
In the mid 70's, LAPD reverted to the LSWC-HP with a 146 grain bullet loaded to what would be a +P standard. After about 3 years of little advantage, they returned to a standard 158gr LSWC or JHP to save money. Officers with .357 revolver were required to use .38 Special ammo due to the urban environment.
Some Highway Patrol agencies used .357's with JHP ammo and other less urban PD's used the 125gr Remington SJHP rated at 1490fps from a six-inch barrel. This round became the premier "man stopper" round. We then saw .38 Special ammo in 125gr become popular too because the lighter weight allowed faster velocities in the "standard" load (and much faster in +P loads).
Agencies that used the 158g LRN used it because it was cheap mostly. The bullet's velocity was only 750-770 fps in most loadings.
Today, I would use the LRN bullet only for targets and plinking, with an occassional use on rabbits and smaller critters.
Police agencies issued the .38 LRN as their standard ammo for many agencies up through as late as 1968. Officers who supplied their own ammo often used a LSWC for it's reputation as being a better man stopper.
In the 30's, the 200gr LRN was offered in the .38 Special. But at only ~740 fps, it was anemic and unable to penetrate autobodies. But then, the 158gr was not much better either. The soft lead deformed too quickly on impact.
In the 1950's, the 158g LRN was cheap and easily available, making it the choice for issued ammo to police. Officers who could buy their own often purchased the 158gr LSWC loads for their reputation as a fight stopper.
In the 1970's, Lee Juras (Super-Vel Corp.) came out with very light bullets (110-125gr) at higher speeds to increase the potential for expansion. These worked somewhat better than standard loads, but were hard on the guns (many were essentially +P+ loads).
In the mid 70's, LAPD reverted to the LSWC-HP with a 146 grain bullet loaded to what would be a +P standard. After about 3 years of little advantage, they returned to a standard 158gr LSWC or JHP to save money. Officers with .357 revolver were required to use .38 Special ammo due to the urban environment.
Some Highway Patrol agencies used .357's with JHP ammo and other less urban PD's used the 125gr Remington SJHP rated at 1490fps from a six-inch barrel. This round became the premier "man stopper" round. We then saw .38 Special ammo in 125gr become popular too because the lighter weight allowed faster velocities in the "standard" load (and much faster in +P loads).
Agencies that used the 158g LRN used it because it was cheap mostly. The bullet's velocity was only 750-770 fps in most loadings.
Today, I would use the LRN bullet only for targets and plinking, with an occassional use on rabbits and smaller critters.
Snub 38, the 38 special 158 gr lead round nose bullet is a great practice round at the range and in the S&W model 10 4 inch revolver it will shoot POA. Like the others said it was not that effective in LE. It you have a 38 special revolver especially the model 10 4 inch the LSWCHP 158gr +P "FBI" round is considered by many as the best for the S&W model 10. I have a model 10 4 inch and its my HD revolver. I have speed loaders loaded with this round. I personally don't feel under-armed. This round became the defense round replacing the LRN round for LE. You can buy this from Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore. I am going to give you a link on the effectiveness of the LSWCHP by a respected gun tester and a retired LE officer named Stephen Camp. I think you will find this interesting.
Good luck,
roaddog28
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm
158 grain LRN .38 Special ammo has been around since the early 1900's. It was THE police round for about 70 years. It was a very accurate round with good penetration and it was cheap enough to practice with. I knew people who were so familiar with their weapon that they could draw and instantly put a round inside a 6 in circle at typical handgun combat range. In the hands of somebody who could actually shoot, it was a very deadly round.
I will not argue its "effectiveness" vs a .38 Special +P which is about 20% more powerful, but to say that the standard 38 Special round is not effective is strecthing things.
More power isn't always desirable. The number 1 rule is to hit what you're aiming at. Recoil can affect accuracy drastically.This is a particular problem when shooting lightweight 38 Specials with 2" or shorter barrels". I think standard velocity 38 Special 158 grain LRN is still the best choice for those.
I will not argue its "effectiveness" vs a .38 Special +P which is about 20% more powerful, but to say that the standard 38 Special round is not effective is strecthing things.
More power isn't always desirable. The number 1 rule is to hit what you're aiming at. Recoil can affect accuracy drastically.This is a particular problem when shooting lightweight 38 Specials with 2" or shorter barrels". I think standard velocity 38 Special 158 grain LRN is still the best choice for those.
When I first hired on the Anchorage Police Dept, (March 8th 1974 to be exact) they issued Mode 15s and 158 LRN bullets. They were cast and loaded by prison trustees on a Star Loader...............Screw that, I loaded my 9own SWCs. They shortly started issuing Model 28s (and I still have mine) so I started carrying my home rolled 158 SWCs in 357. We had to use the belt loops then. The Patrol Capt desided I couldnt carry reloads so I bought some 158 Gr SWC Winchester 357s which I carried until he retired. By then were were allowed to use speed loaders so I was back to mine (Lvman 150 Grn SWC 358477.
I never shot anything but paper with the 158 LRN, but I've shot several moose with the 357 SWCs, they work great. I have fininshed off deer and shot rattlers, rabbits & such with the same 150 SWCs out of my 642 using 4.5 grns of 231.
I never shot anything but paper with the 158 LRN, but I've shot several moose with the 357 SWCs, they work great. I have fininshed off deer and shot rattlers, rabbits & such with the same 150 SWCs out of my 642 using 4.5 grns of 231.
158 grain .38 Special LRN
While it is true that their shape is poor for optimal wounding effect, they do have the penetration to reach the heart, spine and brain. So the question is not wheter they are lethal or not, because they certainly are. The question is how long will it take someone who is shot with them to die.
The 158 grain .38 Special LRN will work, if you are a marksman. If they were all I had, I would use them. It would be a odd day indeed, if I could not stop a single opponent from 5 or less yards away with a 5 or 6 shot cylinder full of round nose .38s. However in this day and age there are far better choices avalible. So my .38 would not be loaded with them to begin with.
As others have noted projectiles like the LSWC and LSWC-HP make much better wounds. New jacketed HP projectles like the Speer 135 grain SB and the Win 130 grain STX also work well.
So why would you want to handicap yourself with the worst performing .38 Special bullet?
While it is true that their shape is poor for optimal wounding effect, they do have the penetration to reach the heart, spine and brain. So the question is not wheter they are lethal or not, because they certainly are. The question is how long will it take someone who is shot with them to die.
The 158 grain .38 Special LRN will work, if you are a marksman. If they were all I had, I would use them. It would be a odd day indeed, if I could not stop a single opponent from 5 or less yards away with a 5 or 6 shot cylinder full of round nose .38s. However in this day and age there are far better choices avalible. So my .38 would not be loaded with them to begin with.
As others have noted projectiles like the LSWC and LSWC-HP make much better wounds. New jacketed HP projectles like the Speer 135 grain SB and the Win 130 grain STX also work well.
So why would you want to handicap yourself with the worst performing .38 Special bullet?
If I remember right, Chief Davis, LAPD required his officers to carry the 158 LRNs giving the only reason that if an officer was shot with his own gun he would have a better survival rate.
That was a while ago, I remember thinking then, a better approach would be to train the cops to hang onto their guns.
That was a while ago, I remember thinking then, a better approach would be to train the cops to hang onto their guns.
knight0334
New member
The .38spl's we still had in the armories I was stationed to in the early 1990's were fed 158gr LRN ammo. My dad had to qualify in the mid-60's in the USAF with a .38spl each year using 158gr LRN.
I dont know what make or mil-spec the ammo was that we issued for range and guard use, it all came out of bulk ammo cans.