Historical context for the war on terror.

M

MeekAndMild

New member
I thought about this driving home today. The thing which prompted it was listening to a radio show about all our national self flagillation over allegations of prisoner abuse.

Our twentieth century rules of warfare just don't prepare us for the war on terror (or war against radical Islamacist terrorism).

Let me use as an example the Aztec system of ritual warfare, the so called 'Flowery Wars'.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/human_scacrifice.html
http://www.loyno.edu/~seduffy/aztecs.html

Basically these were wars which had very strict rules of conduct and very strict limitations. The Mesoamericans fought their wars in a very limited manner. The rules of conduct were enforced by mutual tradition and religion and the overwhelming power of the Aztec empire in its limited sphere of influence. They were shockingly reminiscent of our rules of engagement developed when Queen Victoria's descendents had their little family feud we now call WW-I.

Recall what happened when the Spanish invaded the Aztecs.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/spanish_conquest.html
http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~epf/1997/ebert.html

The Spanish fought 'total war' instead of 'limited war' and they certainly didn't fight flowery wars. They introduced smallpox, they didn't respect Aztec ideas of caste, they fought for totally different reasons than the Aztecs had ever encountered. The Spanish wanted all the land and gold and they used allies who hated the Aztecs and who hoped to kill them all. They succeeded.


All this leads me to ask the question as to whether or not the US really has the resolve to be a world leader or are we like the Aztecs, building thin alliances based on a ritual approach to war which is no longer relevent?

Comments? Remember this was just my idle speculation as I drove home in the rain tonight listening to talk radio.
 
All of the idiotic neo-con talk radio hosts have bought into the premise that being at war is "leading". They are far too ignorant to be allowed to shape the debate for you. These stupid mouthpieces know nothing except what the mainstream media tells them and that's why they're so ignorant. They don't even have a desire to seek the truth and that's why people like that are so easily duped.

Lead? What do we want to lead the world to? More war profiteering? The big central bankers and corporations sit back and smile while we charge off to war for them.

This whole idea of a "new" type of war is so Orwellian that you would think the people who thought it up were smoking some serious weed, but no they did it on purpose. They don't respect you, they think you're soooo dumb that you'll just go along with it. Well either alot of people REALLY ARE dumb or the propaganda masters just don't care about being clandestine anymore. They've changed their ways so much in the past few years, you've really gotta wonder what big thing they've got planned.
 
A country was formed in the 40's and 50's through the use of bombings and assasinations, just like we see today. That alone should have been sufficient to warn us that enemies with low resources could resort to similar tactics.
 
They don't hate our freedom... they hate our support for Israel!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Islamic_Front_for_Jihad_Against_Jews_and_Crusaders
Those of you who believe what the Idiot Bu$h tells you about Al Queda hating our "freedom".... Do some very basic reading.
They hate our irrational, murderous support for Israel and its campaign against iit's enemies.
They don't attack us because we have blue jeans and cable TV, they want us out of their holy places and out of their society. I have no problem with that. I don't want to have anything to do with them!
You have to ask yourself: Why does someone strap on a vest full of explosives and kill themselves along with their enemy?
I think it is due to feelings of powerlessness and hopelessness......not because they want us to live like them.... because they want us to leave them alone. Why don't we do that?
 
I didn't read the link, but:
Unfortunately Islam shares many 'holy' places with Christrianity and Judaism.

I always found it interesting that European crusading fervor was high when Europe was poor and barely educated compared to the Muslims in Spain and the Middle East. When crusaders and western countries grew wealthy from loot and trade, enthusiasm for fighting for God was markedly down.
Now, after the Mongols, Turks, and Tamerlaine along with economic decay the Muslims are the poor and uneducated. Now they also use religion as a pretext for fighting.
 
Yes, the irony is great!

I think it just goes to prove..... the more things change.... the more they remain the same!
 
jailmedic, just so we understand one another, I am strongly pro Israel. We can coexist, but neither of us will ever agree so we'd best not discuss it again lest we both be thrown off the board. I will agree they hate us in large part because we support Israel but our support of that nation is hardly murderous nor unjust.

FYI they hate one another just as strongly, the Sunni's versus Shiites versus the Druse. I would hope that Americans are better than that.
 
I'm still trying to figure out how you physically make war on a concept. Of course, the government has also been trying to figure out how to fight an inanimate object (drugs are bad, okay) for 20 years.

I'm looking forward to upcoming wars on certain states of mind.


Maybe there are some things that can't be fought with the military. I know, probably a stupid idea. :rolleyes:
 
Fine, you restrain yourself....

I have no intention of saying anything that would get me "thrown off the board". If you do, that is your issue.... As far as avoiding particular subjects because someone doesn't agree with me?
Ain't gonna happen.....
I reiterate my point - which was not any comment on Israel other than the position expressed by Osama Bin Ladin - they do not hate us for our freedoms..... they hate us for being in their holy sites and for what they perceive as our irrational support for Israel. Now, if you have a comment about that, fine. If you want to argue about our support for Israel, find someone else.... my comment was about the historical roots of terror.
 
There is no historical context for a "war on terrorism" since it is not a logical and rational concept. It is like saying there is going to be a "war on crime".

Since there is no rational, tangible conclusion possible it is meaningless - except to betray the nature of those who have foisted the idea upon us and their intentions. And that is nothing new in history at all.
 
Sorry, Annie....

They are not conducting terror attacks because you are walking around without a veil.
When did our Constitution include exporting our Bill of Rights to people halfway around the world who don't want it?
I am not willing to die so that Fatima in Iraq can have the Blessings of Liberty.
I am also not willing to pay for someone else to die for that reason. If you are, then have at it. Leave me and my government out of the project.
 
Something you don't normally hear about, either, is that Iraq was actually a pretty progressive place, once you got past the iron-fisted dictator bit.

No, I'm not defending Hussien. He was a monster, no argument there. However, as far as monsters go, he wasn't as bad as some of the others the world has produced over time, womens' freedom in Iraq was far better than most of the neighbouring countries, even.

At the end of all of this, it won't matter. Iraq will either break up into three seperate states (its component pieces) through civil war or a new iron-fisted dictator will rise up to keep everyone in line, and just like Hussien, he'll be A-OK with the US-A for a good twenty years or so before our "elected" leaders decide he's gone too big for his britches, and it all goes down again.
 
"However, as far as monsters go, he wasn't as bad as some of the others"

I think that's what's known a damnably faint praise. :barf:

On a different note...Israel????...they've hated us since at least the Crusades. Israel is just another feeble excuse that they use.

John
 
gfen is right

Sadaam was not nearly as scary as Musharref, who actually HAS nukes and has threatened to use them. Nor was he as scary as Kim Jong Il who has nukes and has threatened to use them.
The reason Iraq caught the storm was Sadaam tried to kill Poppy and Our Dear Shrub knew he could kick butt fairly easily as far as the invasion was concerned. The fact that he didn't have a plan for the aftermath didn't matter. It never does to spoiled brats who have never been responsible for their own decisions.
When the death watch passes 2000 will we withdraw? When it reaches 3000? 10,000? Exactly when, all you who think this is such a necessary war?
 
"However, as far as monsters go, he wasn't as bad as some of the others"

I think that's what's known a damnably faint praise.
Click to expand...
Funny, because even that much cannot be said of the dictators we supported during the Cold War. They were smaller monsters only because of their limited reach, not in what they did.
 
JailMedic... We were leaving them alone until they decided to fly 2 airliners into the world trade center and 1 into the pentegon.. and of course the one that never made its intended destination. There is no way we can let something like that pass and yes I know we invaded Iraq for different reasons but they are still Muslims and just a small part of the grand scheme of our retaliation.

and spare me the "not all muslims are bad talk" when 9/11 happened the Muslims in the Texaco gas station across the street from me were cheering like there was no tommorow. What happend to them is another story all together...
 
357 magfan

You are in good company, sir.
The alleged President has also confused Saudis with Iraqis.
They are no more the same than you and I are.
And we both know how different you and I are, don't we?
"They" is a very broad term.....
Too broad to go to war over.....
 
Yes they are like you and I but they did declare Jihad many a time on us so to me its obvious they are the enemy and we should realize that.
 
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