Hiring 300 More ATF Agents Part II
- Thread starter RR
- Start date
- Status
Rob, I reread my original post and see how it could be interpreted as a statement of fact. Obviously, I was speaking rhetorically. I'm sure you don't honestly think I'm a flag-burning, drug-sucking nazi because I defend the right of people to display offensive political views or to self-medicate?
I vehemently defend all civil liberties, for all people. If that's a problem, it's yours, not mine. I don't pick and choose which parts of the Bill of Rights appeals to me; all of our rights are unalienable.
Would I really want to shoot a LEO who came mistakenly busting through my door in the middle of the night? No, I'd rather enjoy my privacy, as guaranteed in the 4th. I think that meekly following orders of masked men who have burst into your home, weapons drawn, is a recipe for disaster. How am I supposed to know that these folks are actually LEOs when they act like thugs? Should I assume that? It's like a bear charge, you can assume it's a bluff, but what if you're wrong?
I actively participate each and every day in protecting society, by behaving responsibly and by being prepared to defend myself, my family, and anyone else from being harmed by predators. I also actively defend the rights of everyone on the planet by talking to everyone about freedom, including on this forum. All I am doing is following the wisdom of the Founders and philosophers who influenced them. Is that too radical? Perhaps some LEOs might wish to thank me.
Further, I think those of us who have made a conciliatory effort toward BQ, in apologizing for misconceptions and by assuring BQ that certain posts were not personal attacks, should be thanked by the administrators for taking the high road. fubsy, et al.
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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited July 08, 1999).]
I vehemently defend all civil liberties, for all people. If that's a problem, it's yours, not mine. I don't pick and choose which parts of the Bill of Rights appeals to me; all of our rights are unalienable.
Would I really want to shoot a LEO who came mistakenly busting through my door in the middle of the night? No, I'd rather enjoy my privacy, as guaranteed in the 4th. I think that meekly following orders of masked men who have burst into your home, weapons drawn, is a recipe for disaster. How am I supposed to know that these folks are actually LEOs when they act like thugs? Should I assume that? It's like a bear charge, you can assume it's a bluff, but what if you're wrong?
I actively participate each and every day in protecting society, by behaving responsibly and by being prepared to defend myself, my family, and anyone else from being harmed by predators. I also actively defend the rights of everyone on the planet by talking to everyone about freedom, including on this forum. All I am doing is following the wisdom of the Founders and philosophers who influenced them. Is that too radical? Perhaps some LEOs might wish to thank me.
Further, I think those of us who have made a conciliatory effort toward BQ, in apologizing for misconceptions and by assuring BQ that certain posts were not personal attacks, should be thanked by the administrators for taking the high road. fubsy, et al.
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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited July 08, 1999).]
I read BQ's posts and, in my onpinion, his attitude towards freedom S U C K S !
Now I hear the point Rob made about how BQ and others like him are actually great guys and his warning to us about the Waco/Ruby paint brush but I'd like to counter that point:
I watch footage of Waco. I study these guy's faces, I listen to some of their dialoge, and you know-- A lot of them seem like nice enough guys too. In fact, I'd bet my next 6 paychecks that if you went back in time and grabbed any one of those agents out of that situation and sat them down for a chat, they'd seem like really great guys!! Maybe a little misguided, maybe full of bad indoctrination, but you'd probably get along pretty well with them.
So why is my guard up? Because I believe that anyone who can JOKE (and I know it was *meant* only as a joke) about things such as bashing citizen's teeth out is CAPABLE and warrants scepticism. Even "high-road nice guys".
[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited July 08, 1999).]
Now I hear the point Rob made about how BQ and others like him are actually great guys and his warning to us about the Waco/Ruby paint brush but I'd like to counter that point:
I watch footage of Waco. I study these guy's faces, I listen to some of their dialoge, and you know-- A lot of them seem like nice enough guys too. In fact, I'd bet my next 6 paychecks that if you went back in time and grabbed any one of those agents out of that situation and sat them down for a chat, they'd seem like really great guys!! Maybe a little misguided, maybe full of bad indoctrination, but you'd probably get along pretty well with them.
So why is my guard up? Because I believe that anyone who can JOKE (and I know it was *meant* only as a joke) about things such as bashing citizen's teeth out is CAPABLE and warrants scepticism. Even "high-road nice guys".
[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited July 08, 1999).]
Benton Quest
New member
Jordan,
POUND SAND!
POUND SAND!
Rob,
The biggest reason I beat it to death is the fact that many LEOs refuse to admit that a LEO can make a mistake. It is the homeowner or "subject" that is blamed for not complying with confusing, screamed, sometimes contradictory orders and maybe not even in the subject's language.
That's not law enforcement. It is something worse and I truly do not have a proper word for it.
I am just yearning to hear ONE LEO say, "Yeah, I see what you mean and we're gonna do something about it to see it does not happen again."
But what do we get? I'll e-mail it, Rob.
----
Benton,
I have no argument with anything you've said. Defending the vast majority of LEOs is right and honorable.
I do have another problem that I'll try to resolve off-line.
Stay well.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 08, 1999).]
The biggest reason I beat it to death is the fact that many LEOs refuse to admit that a LEO can make a mistake. It is the homeowner or "subject" that is blamed for not complying with confusing, screamed, sometimes contradictory orders and maybe not even in the subject's language.
That's not law enforcement. It is something worse and I truly do not have a proper word for it.
I am just yearning to hear ONE LEO say, "Yeah, I see what you mean and we're gonna do something about it to see it does not happen again."
But what do we get? I'll e-mail it, Rob.
----
Benton,
I have no argument with anything you've said. Defending the vast majority of LEOs is right and honorable.
I do have another problem that I'll try to resolve off-line.
Stay well.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 08, 1999).]
I've heard many LEOs say "The most important thing is that I go home alive at the end of my shift."
That's nice, but I'm afraid I can't agree. The most important thing is that LEOs respect the Constitution in the course of their duties.
If you're not comfortable putting the Constitution before your life, find a different line of work.
[This message has been edited by deanf (edited July 08, 1999).]
That's nice, but I'm afraid I can't agree. The most important thing is that LEOs respect the Constitution in the course of their duties.
If you're not comfortable putting the Constitution before your life, find a different line of work.
[This message has been edited by deanf (edited July 08, 1999).]
Rob Pincus
New member
admin hat still off Painting LE with the WAco/Ruby Ridge brush is just 100% exactly like Anti's painting all of us with the Dylan Klebold, Oklahoma Bomber or the recent White Supremecist Shooter Brush. 100% exactly the same. Were they Gun owners? Yes. They had Guns. They used them irresponsibly and illegally, but they used Guns.
Now, if some punk uses a badge to do something wrong, is it fair to indict everyone else with a badge?
If you really think so, fine.. but plesae don't bitch in any other threads about how the anti's want to take away your guns because of a few isolated irresponsible criminals.
That's what cops who truly abuse the system are, isolated irresponsible criminals. I'm not talking about pulling over a Blonde in a Sportscar instead of an old man in a truck, nor am I talking about barking orders to someone in an uncontrolled situation instaead of saying "please" one thousand times.. I'm talking about the sicko in New York with the mop handle and thing for Homosexual SadoMasochism, that guy was not acting as a cop anymore than Dylan Klebold was acting as a "gun owner".
The politicians who were responsible for the planning at Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't cops either. Even if they didn't hold elected positions, the guys who planned the start of both those situations were playing political games.. looking to further their career and/or standing through the events. I think that LE has learned some very valubale lessons from both incidents.. and I think that is why we don't have any recent events like them. I've heard both of those incidents derided by cops at least as often, if not more often than I have from non-cops.
For those of you who begin to think that being ready to protect yourself and your family is anywhere close to the same as going out into a "bad part of town" to protect the rights of some lazy-welfare-abusing almost-no-noticable-redeeming-quality resident of your commmunity, you haven't got a clue. Being a Cop means a lot more than trying to figure out how to get a no-knock warrant or trying to abuse the little control you have over situations.
I highly encourage those of you with any doubt of that fact to make arranements with your local LEA to go on a "ride-along".. most angencies allow them. You'll sign a waiver, most likely leave your gun home, and go ride around with a patrol officer for a shift. You will see just how generally boring LE work generally is. You might get a glimpse of how it can instantly turn into the highest adrenaline-rush-stress-scene imaginable. Either way, I think you might have a better picture in your head of what regular street cops do, as oposed to the headline grabbing members of HRTs, NTFs, OSIs and WDETs.
Furthermore, getting back to the idea of protecting yourself and behaving.. that is simply what is expected of every non-retarded member of society. If you think that such behavior deserves a "thank you" then you are contributing to the downfall of our civilization. Why would anyone think that they are not expected, as a member of society, to do those things? "Thank You" is for doing something extra, not for doing the absolute minimum.
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-Essayons
Ed Brunner
New member
deanf makes a point about going home at the end of the shift and I agree that is important.
What has bothered me for a lonf time is the militarization of police.There is a big difference between military and police.First and most important is that police are emplowees of the innocent until proven guilty people whom they regulate.
In a war there are no innocent until proven guilty people and the people our military faces are not the US citizens who employ them.
If you think about it you can probably come up with one or two other differences. They should be totally and completely different and seperate.
And also, pounding sand is not the answer.
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Better days to be,
Ed
What has bothered me for a lonf time is the militarization of police.There is a big difference between military and police.First and most important is that police are emplowees of the innocent until proven guilty people whom they regulate.
In a war there are no innocent until proven guilty people and the people our military faces are not the US citizens who employ them.
If you think about it you can probably come up with one or two other differences. They should be totally and completely different and seperate.
And also, pounding sand is not the answer.
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Better days to be,
Ed
rob 
1. to begin I agree with you that painting all leo's with the brush of the abuses of waco, ruby ridge, or block burning down in philadelphia(I forget the name of that group they burned out),is not correct--but surely you understand that those events are witnessed by civilians(love that term), as abuses of power of which nothing of any consequence was held against the individuals involved, and when the trials were held the civilians were once again man-handled by the system....it dosent sound quite right to me does it to you? Like BQ you appear to have the same mindset that it is all or nothing, that civilians are to give up their unalineable right to unreasonable search and seizure willingly if ya'll feel the need. I dont agree, now using an example that has been brought up(the war on drug thing), you bet if I have a methlab next store Ill let ya stay at my home and fix yall dinner if ya need it no problem, do I want ya breaking in my home ...absolutely not....my position is not anti-leo, its more constitutional gurantees and are we not guranteed those rights? In tx we have a doctor who firearm collection was confiscated prior to any conviction, I see this situation as somewhat similar, should I lose any rights prior to a unsubstaniated warrant, or a mistake, Im still waiting to find out what my recourse would be if my home was invaded by leo's in error, do i have the force of the law behind me, or because the trespass and invasion was done by a leo's are my rights relinquished by law..............
2. Are the politicians to blame, you betcha they a large part of the problem, and together we need to keep an eye on the bums and vote em out if needed.
3. As for abuses of the system by either the "system" or individual leo's....an abuse is an abuse like breaking the law is breaking the law----but realistically there are varying degrees, speeding and pulling over the cute blonde is not the same as that sicko in ny, a special place in hell needs to be reserved for people like him. The question is what is the difference in attitude between a local leo lying about a speeding tickett or one who decides to get a little butt whooping in once the civilian is in custody--dont think it happens? ask your fellow metro leo's about the elevator rides downtown..............
3. Yep agree a 100% most times ya deal with scum of the earth, he'd just as soon lie to ya as not. Thats the job. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to catch some one in the act of a crime and before you get the paper work done the dude is on the street, ....thats unfortunately is the reality of the job as well......
4....this one really gets me......
As for the "thankyou" for doing what is expected...hmmmmmmm.....sounds to me like it cuts both ways does it not?, and if leo's are abusing there authorited to get the bad guy are they not responsible for the downfall of our country as well?
5. I think perhaps the problem is the law and the interpretation that allows what some civilians see as an abuse, perhaps our legislators need to revisit this situation as they have recently on asset confiscation.
Hey bq,
pound sand?, you can do better than that...it is funny though..lol.....also welcome and keep contributing...
... fubsy
1. to begin I agree with you that painting all leo's with the brush of the abuses of waco, ruby ridge, or block burning down in philadelphia(I forget the name of that group they burned out),is not correct--but surely you understand that those events are witnessed by civilians(love that term), as abuses of power of which nothing of any consequence was held against the individuals involved, and when the trials were held the civilians were once again man-handled by the system....it dosent sound quite right to me does it to you? Like BQ you appear to have the same mindset that it is all or nothing, that civilians are to give up their unalineable right to unreasonable search and seizure willingly if ya'll feel the need. I dont agree, now using an example that has been brought up(the war on drug thing), you bet if I have a methlab next store Ill let ya stay at my home and fix yall dinner if ya need it no problem, do I want ya breaking in my home ...absolutely not....my position is not anti-leo, its more constitutional gurantees and are we not guranteed those rights? In tx we have a doctor who firearm collection was confiscated prior to any conviction, I see this situation as somewhat similar, should I lose any rights prior to a unsubstaniated warrant, or a mistake, Im still waiting to find out what my recourse would be if my home was invaded by leo's in error, do i have the force of the law behind me, or because the trespass and invasion was done by a leo's are my rights relinquished by law..............
2. Are the politicians to blame, you betcha they a large part of the problem, and together we need to keep an eye on the bums and vote em out if needed.
3. As for abuses of the system by either the "system" or individual leo's....an abuse is an abuse like breaking the law is breaking the law----but realistically there are varying degrees, speeding and pulling over the cute blonde is not the same as that sicko in ny, a special place in hell needs to be reserved for people like him. The question is what is the difference in attitude between a local leo lying about a speeding tickett or one who decides to get a little butt whooping in once the civilian is in custody--dont think it happens? ask your fellow metro leo's about the elevator rides downtown..............
3. Yep agree a 100% most times ya deal with scum of the earth, he'd just as soon lie to ya as not. Thats the job. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to catch some one in the act of a crime and before you get the paper work done the dude is on the street, ....thats unfortunately is the reality of the job as well......
4....this one really gets me......
As for the "thankyou" for doing what is expected...hmmmmmmm.....sounds to me like it cuts both ways does it not?, and if leo's are abusing there authorited to get the bad guy are they not responsible for the downfall of our country as well?
5. I think perhaps the problem is the law and the interpretation that allows what some civilians see as an abuse, perhaps our legislators need to revisit this situation as they have recently on asset confiscation.
Hey bq
,pound sand?, you can do better than that...it is funny though..lol.....also welcome and keep contributing...
...
fubsy Benton Quest
New member
OK....Here I am, the whipping boy stepping back up to the plate for another round of undeserved criticism.
Is the "war on drugs" a joke? Quite possibly. But, fact is, it is the law. It just so happens that its getting more media attention that our previous "war on paper-clips", in whcih, by the way, we kicked ass.
Are these laws unconstitutional? I don't think so, but apparently that is a matter of opinion.
Is the war on drugs being lost? From many perspctives, you could say, yes. But is that law enforcement's fault. Not usually. The failure in most instances can be rested firmly upon the shhoulders of the courts and the corrections branches.
Trust me, it would not hurt my feelings if drugs were outlawed. It would free up more of my time for other more productive activities. On the other hand, stating that drugs are victimless is ridiculous. How many other crimes are perpetuated as a byproduct of their illicit use? Have you ever been burglarized? What do you think the most common reason for that is?
Are there abuses in law enforcement? Yep. Cases of mistaken identity and false information? Yep. Dirty cops? Yep. Will I apologize for my profession? Yep. Will I apologize for my actions? Nope. Not yet. I haven't done anything wrong....In my opinion, which you may not share. However, I have the Supreme Court in my corner. In my book, that's pretty good company.
As far as no-knock search warrants....How often do you think we do these things? It is not exactly common, I assure you. As stated before, I wear brown a whole lot more than I wear black or camo. Although, from the tone of some of these posts, I think it is a reasonable assumption that you do not want law enforcement on any level, regardless of uniform.
As far as Ruby Ridge and Waco goes.....I'm tired, so very tired of defending my position of these operations. My position is the same as your's on these issues. Enough said. End of that story.
Most people who are critical of the implementation of specialized tactics is that they feel that they are overkill. "Knock on my door like a gentleman"....Well, I think it is safe to assume that in the case of this board, 99.9% of our posters would willingly comply with a respectfully served, knock at the front door, you mind if we have a look around, search warrant.
However, reasonable, rational-minded, respectful minded people are not who we are dealing with. Do we go dynamic on every entry? No...I already said, there has to be a legitimate threat to officer safety involved. If we don't know what we're dealing with, we haven't done our jobs.
We serve dynamic seaerch warrants on residences of people that are not exactly in love with law and/or order. They would like to kill us. I have a problem with that, even if you don't. I will go home. That's my plan. I know deanf disagrees with this, but perhaps he should step out from behind his dispatcher's microphone and see what life is really like. You can't move on to solve the world's problems if your dead.
There will always be those that are critical of law enforcement. Hell, from one post I can assume that next I'll have to defend the fact that I drive a car that does not bear a light bar. I think it's getting rather ridiculous.
Fact is, we do things the way we do for a reason. Do you agree with these techniques? At this point, I don't care. I do what I have to do to stay alive. Are the small percentage of unsavory incidents blown out of proportion? Yes. Do they happen? Yes. Is it excusable? No. But, as long as we are human, mistakes will be made. That's the facts.
Where do you want to draw the line? Is there ever an incident where you would condone police entering a residence without the owner's consent?
I know that I am in the vast minority here, but I am nothing if not tenacious. All I know is that I'm getting more than a little tired of bashing my head up against the wall.
By the way, how many of our members have been awakened in the middle of the night by black clad ninjas shoving MP5's in their face?
One more item that will serve as food for thought for you conspiracy theorists:
MP5: German designed, German made.
The Third Reich: German designed, German made.
Oh my God...could it be???
(Don't worry. My group uses Colts)
Is the "war on drugs" a joke? Quite possibly. But, fact is, it is the law. It just so happens that its getting more media attention that our previous "war on paper-clips", in whcih, by the way, we kicked ass.
Are these laws unconstitutional? I don't think so, but apparently that is a matter of opinion.
Is the war on drugs being lost? From many perspctives, you could say, yes. But is that law enforcement's fault. Not usually. The failure in most instances can be rested firmly upon the shhoulders of the courts and the corrections branches.
Trust me, it would not hurt my feelings if drugs were outlawed. It would free up more of my time for other more productive activities. On the other hand, stating that drugs are victimless is ridiculous. How many other crimes are perpetuated as a byproduct of their illicit use? Have you ever been burglarized? What do you think the most common reason for that is?
Are there abuses in law enforcement? Yep. Cases of mistaken identity and false information? Yep. Dirty cops? Yep. Will I apologize for my profession? Yep. Will I apologize for my actions? Nope. Not yet. I haven't done anything wrong....In my opinion, which you may not share. However, I have the Supreme Court in my corner. In my book, that's pretty good company.
As far as no-knock search warrants....How often do you think we do these things? It is not exactly common, I assure you. As stated before, I wear brown a whole lot more than I wear black or camo. Although, from the tone of some of these posts, I think it is a reasonable assumption that you do not want law enforcement on any level, regardless of uniform.
As far as Ruby Ridge and Waco goes.....I'm tired, so very tired of defending my position of these operations. My position is the same as your's on these issues. Enough said. End of that story.
Most people who are critical of the implementation of specialized tactics is that they feel that they are overkill. "Knock on my door like a gentleman"....Well, I think it is safe to assume that in the case of this board, 99.9% of our posters would willingly comply with a respectfully served, knock at the front door, you mind if we have a look around, search warrant.
However, reasonable, rational-minded, respectful minded people are not who we are dealing with. Do we go dynamic on every entry? No...I already said, there has to be a legitimate threat to officer safety involved. If we don't know what we're dealing with, we haven't done our jobs.
We serve dynamic seaerch warrants on residences of people that are not exactly in love with law and/or order. They would like to kill us. I have a problem with that, even if you don't. I will go home. That's my plan. I know deanf disagrees with this, but perhaps he should step out from behind his dispatcher's microphone and see what life is really like. You can't move on to solve the world's problems if your dead.
There will always be those that are critical of law enforcement. Hell, from one post I can assume that next I'll have to defend the fact that I drive a car that does not bear a light bar. I think it's getting rather ridiculous.
Fact is, we do things the way we do for a reason. Do you agree with these techniques? At this point, I don't care. I do what I have to do to stay alive. Are the small percentage of unsavory incidents blown out of proportion? Yes. Do they happen? Yes. Is it excusable? No. But, as long as we are human, mistakes will be made. That's the facts.
Where do you want to draw the line? Is there ever an incident where you would condone police entering a residence without the owner's consent?
I know that I am in the vast minority here, but I am nothing if not tenacious. All I know is that I'm getting more than a little tired of bashing my head up against the wall.
By the way, how many of our members have been awakened in the middle of the night by black clad ninjas shoving MP5's in their face?
One more item that will serve as food for thought for you conspiracy theorists:
MP5: German designed, German made.
The Third Reich: German designed, German made.
Oh my God...could it be???
(Don't worry. My group uses Colts)
Benton Quest
New member
I almost forgot....to the member that stated that I was capable of bashing someone's teeth in because I joked about it.....
GET A CLUE!!! I joke about all sorts of things...I'm that kind of guy.
And by the way, POUND SAND!
GET A CLUE!!! I joke about all sorts of things...I'm that kind of guy.
And by the way, POUND SAND!
IMHO the war on drugs was a loosing battle back in the 20's when alcohol was the drug under regulation. Our countrys efforts in the golden triangle in the 60's further compounded our problem. The folktale is that the CIA funded operations off budget in Laos by controling the asian poppy market.
Drugs are a product in demand. Supply side economics 101. We have created this monster and expect the LEO's to control it? The country can tie up tons of resources on the problem and hardly dent the problem. Our economy may be booming in the tech sector but look at the family farm economy... Farmers grow crops that make money. I saw an interview with a Geogia farmer. He said that 1 pot plant was worth the value of a field of soybeans
we are rapidly polarizing our nation.
Once we all equally repel each other, then what?
The nation is seriously wonked
there are no morals, morals are not PC
our President is an inhaling philandering liar. He succeeds thru deceit.
People spend more time worshiping sports and beanie bags than working towards a better future. Maybe if the youth had strong leadership they would not waste their lives in nilistic slackitude. Have you read the dispair in our youths minds? In the 60s we feared the Russian bomb. Now we fear that Orwell was right. We fear our government. We fear our Police. We fear our neighboors will turn us in for disiplining our children. We fear Y2k. We fear the credit card bill. We fear that our elected representative are corupt with power and acting in their own best interests.
we are reaping that which we have sown.
its enough to make you sing the blues...
-doc Zox
Drugs are a product in demand. Supply side economics 101. We have created this monster and expect the LEO's to control it? The country can tie up tons of resources on the problem and hardly dent the problem. Our economy may be booming in the tech sector but look at the family farm economy... Farmers grow crops that make money. I saw an interview with a Geogia farmer. He said that 1 pot plant was worth the value of a field of soybeans
we are rapidly polarizing our nation.
Once we all equally repel each other, then what?
The nation is seriously wonked
there are no morals, morals are not PC
our President is an inhaling philandering liar. He succeeds thru deceit.
People spend more time worshiping sports and beanie bags than working towards a better future. Maybe if the youth had strong leadership they would not waste their lives in nilistic slackitude. Have you read the dispair in our youths minds? In the 60s we feared the Russian bomb. Now we fear that Orwell was right. We fear our government. We fear our Police. We fear our neighboors will turn us in for disiplining our children. We fear Y2k. We fear the credit card bill. We fear that our elected representative are corupt with power and acting in their own best interests.
we are reaping that which we have sown.
its enough to make you sing the blues...
-doc Zox
BQ,
Although I have no practical experience,I will agree that dynamic entries do have there uses. What I believe, however, is that faulty intel is what causes most of the problems.
I can understand the desire to come home alive. I can especially understand that desire if there is significant others in your life.
The problem, I believe, is that several people think there is no recourse if an innocent is injured or killed due to a botch dynamic entry, wether through faulty intel or some other way.
This coupled with a few officers "Us vs. Them" cowboy like attitude creates a friction between LEOs and citizens.
The media is as much to blame about this state of affairs as they are to blame about the negative tide of anti-gun propaganda they spew.
A cop that does his job is not as news worthy as the corrupt cop. Hence, all news seems to focus on bad LEOs and the public precieves all LEOs as corrupt.
Is there a way to correct these inbalances? I be curious to here your opinions. Thank you for your time and patience Benton Quest.
Although I have no practical experience,I will agree that dynamic entries do have there uses. What I believe, however, is that faulty intel is what causes most of the problems.
I can understand the desire to come home alive. I can especially understand that desire if there is significant others in your life.
The problem, I believe, is that several people think there is no recourse if an innocent is injured or killed due to a botch dynamic entry, wether through faulty intel or some other way.
This coupled with a few officers "Us vs. Them" cowboy like attitude creates a friction between LEOs and citizens.
The media is as much to blame about this state of affairs as they are to blame about the negative tide of anti-gun propaganda they spew.
A cop that does his job is not as news worthy as the corrupt cop. Hence, all news seems to focus on bad LEOs and the public precieves all LEOs as corrupt.
Is there a way to correct these inbalances? I be curious to here your opinions. Thank you for your time and patience Benton Quest.
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
My problem is that people keep getting killed in these raids when the intelligence was faulty. The most recent I am aware of was in Houston and Kansas City. Both drug raids. The quality of intelligence in both was abysmal. A moron could have made the judgement that the intelligence was faulty in both of these cases as well as the one I cited in Aiken, SC. In Kansas City, several marijuana cigarette butts were found while in
Houston not one thing illegal was discovered.
But the LEO's responsible for authorizing the raids were not even slapped on their pinkies.
Yeah, they got to go home but their victims went to the graveyard. Maybe in Kansas City, Houston, and Aiken the police need to hire intelligence analysts who are capable of competent judgement.
Note that this is not "painting with a broad brush." I am referencing specific incidents, all of which were based on entirely erroneous intelligence. Two of the incidents led to the deaths of individuals whose only crime was to attempt to defend their families against unknown assailants in the middle of the night. The third incident netted a jug of Koolaid. Defend these incidents if you care to. I do not see a basis for defense.
Houston not one thing illegal was discovered.
But the LEO's responsible for authorizing the raids were not even slapped on their pinkies.
Yeah, they got to go home but their victims went to the graveyard. Maybe in Kansas City, Houston, and Aiken the police need to hire intelligence analysts who are capable of competent judgement.
Note that this is not "painting with a broad brush." I am referencing specific incidents, all of which were based on entirely erroneous intelligence. Two of the incidents led to the deaths of individuals whose only crime was to attempt to defend their families against unknown assailants in the middle of the night. The third incident netted a jug of Koolaid. Defend these incidents if you care to. I do not see a basis for defense.
Rob, you crack me up. It seems to me that going to the bad part of town to "protect the rights of some lazy-welfare-abusing almost-no-noticable-redeeming-quality resident of your commmunity" is the absolute minimum job requirement for being a cop, and requires no special thanks. If you have no desire to protect these folks, then I suggest that law enforcement may not be your best bet, for it is precisely these people who will need the most protection. In my clueless world, everyone who is not a proven criminal, or maybe a politician, has the same rights as everyone else. However, I do thank, personally, each parent I know who raises decent children. Sure, they're just doing the minimum, what any non-retard is expected to do, but it means a lot to me. I'll just go along contributing to the downfall of society by trying to protect everyone's civil rights; even your right to believe that I'm clueless. I may be clueless (it's that perception thing again) but I don't enforce unconstitutional laws. Show me precisely where in the Constitution it says that the federal gov't is allowed to make laws concerning the use of drugs, and I will retract that last statement. Keep in mind the 18th amendment. Why did we need that to control alcohol, but not other, less dangerous, drugs?
BQ, I'm in total agreement with you in that you have better things to do with your time than to catch drug offenders. I'd much rather we used your skills to apprehend thieves and violent criminals, and that our prisons would then have room to hold them in the space formerly occupied by non-violent drug offenders. That being said I don't feel it's ridiculous to say that the private use of illicit drugs is a victimless crime. In fact, it is ridiculous to put the blame for crimes committed by junkies to support their habits on all who may enjoy occasional recreational drug use. It's no different than the antis saying that all gun owners are murderers. If someone steals from someone else, they are a thief, no matter what their end motives are. Toss them in jail, it's where they belong.
I encourage all who may have questions concerning the facts on recreational drug use, and the history of drug criminalization in this country to take a look at Peter McWilliam's' excellent online book, "Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do." http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/f01.htm
It is well worth reading.
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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited July 08, 1999).]
BQ, I'm in total agreement with you in that you have better things to do with your time than to catch drug offenders. I'd much rather we used your skills to apprehend thieves and violent criminals, and that our prisons would then have room to hold them in the space formerly occupied by non-violent drug offenders. That being said I don't feel it's ridiculous to say that the private use of illicit drugs is a victimless crime. In fact, it is ridiculous to put the blame for crimes committed by junkies to support their habits on all who may enjoy occasional recreational drug use. It's no different than the antis saying that all gun owners are murderers. If someone steals from someone else, they are a thief, no matter what their end motives are. Toss them in jail, it's where they belong.
I encourage all who may have questions concerning the facts on recreational drug use, and the history of drug criminalization in this country to take a look at Peter McWilliam's' excellent online book, "Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do." http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/f01.htm
It is well worth reading.
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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited July 08, 1999).]
Benton Quest
New member
Spart,
Please don't misconstrue my previous posts as a defense for shoddy police work. Lack of tactical intelligence regarding an incident is in no way an excuse and not something that I endorse.
I am not specifically familiar with the incidents of which you speak. If the situations played out as you have described, those responsible should be punished appropriately. Without hearing all sides though (and knowing how situations can become distorted) I can not speak in an educated fashion of these operations.
My guess is the officers WILL be punished in somewhat in civil court (if what you say is true). No it doesn't bring back the victims.
But, it is some small justice.
Like I alluded to before, mistakes will be made. This is not an excuse, but a fact. It just seems like we're all spending a disproportionate amount of time harping on a very tiny fraction of those instances that occur.
By the way, still waiting to hear from the Ninja victims on this post....
Please don't misconstrue my previous posts as a defense for shoddy police work. Lack of tactical intelligence regarding an incident is in no way an excuse and not something that I endorse.
I am not specifically familiar with the incidents of which you speak. If the situations played out as you have described, those responsible should be punished appropriately. Without hearing all sides though (and knowing how situations can become distorted) I can not speak in an educated fashion of these operations.
My guess is the officers WILL be punished in somewhat in civil court (if what you say is true). No it doesn't bring back the victims.
But, it is some small justice.
Like I alluded to before, mistakes will be made. This is not an excuse, but a fact. It just seems like we're all spending a disproportionate amount of time harping on a very tiny fraction of those instances that occur.
By the way, still waiting to hear from the Ninja victims on this post....
Got what I needed. When good cops get po'd at the bad cops, and admit it, and get the bad apples out of the LEO barrel y'all say you're in , then I'm with ya 100%. Can't ask for more than that of ANY career field.
We're on the same side. Thanks!
Grateful Grump
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 08, 1999).]
, then I'm with ya 100%. Can't ask for more than that of ANY career field.We're on the same side. Thanks!
Grateful Grump
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 08, 1999).]
I will stick to my belief that we have a Corporate- Fascist State nearly completed. THe day of the POLICE OFFICER is gone with the wind. There was a time when police officers enforced the peace between other citizens. It wasnt them against us mentality. Now it is law enforcement ;enforcement of many revenue producing laws of this corporate state in the making. The sleazy lawyers are corporare lawyers working for the HUGE corporate state. The judges and lawyers could care less for constitutional law. Go into court and complain to de judge that "my constitutional rights are being violated. That judge will tell you to sit down and shut up. The sad truth,which most Americans have not figured out, is that constitutional law is not followed in"their" court system. And it is all legal under the US government system which is a corporation and we are its indentured servants(social security, Federal Reserve mortgages,banks,and fiat "currency) I may be degressing,but police,except for sheriffs, are simply agents of this System. Executive, Legislative, and Judicial systems are one and the same:all working for corporate system. There are some very intelligent people who have studied this topic and can explain it better than me. The Banksters have nearly completed their centuries long dream;one economic system enforced by the state.
- Status