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High Cap 9mm's?
- Thread starter ZVP
- Start date
Sweet Shooter, there's a difference between a psychological stop (your "change a guys mind") and a physiological stop (hence my "determined and aggressive BG").
With a psychological stop, caliber & bullet used are moot as the BG *chooses* to end the attack for whatever reason (doesn't want to get shot, feels pain, sees his own blood, etc).
With a physiological stop, the attack ends because the BG's brain shuts down from either direct damage to the CNS or oxygen deprivation due to bleedout regardless of the BG's desire to continue the attack.
There are numerous cases where multiple handgun hits have failed to stop a determined attacker (Platt in the infamous Miami Shootout comes to mind) so your "twaddle" comment is just that: twaddle that's not based on objective reality.
Please explain the mechanism by which the "energy" you referred can "change a guy's mind" if he's aggressive and determined.
Please explain the difference between "sufficient" and "appropriate" penetration when it comes to self defense. Sufficient is enough to reach the vitals, the contrary being insufficient to reach the vitals. Where does "appropriate" fit in here?
I respectfully disagree with your comment "The projectile behavior in soft tissue is the single most important aspect of the entire equation." The single most important aspect of the equation is shot placement. The most effective bullet in existence has no effect if it misses the target.
Tomac
With a psychological stop, caliber & bullet used are moot as the BG *chooses* to end the attack for whatever reason (doesn't want to get shot, feels pain, sees his own blood, etc).
With a physiological stop, the attack ends because the BG's brain shuts down from either direct damage to the CNS or oxygen deprivation due to bleedout regardless of the BG's desire to continue the attack.
There are numerous cases where multiple handgun hits have failed to stop a determined attacker (Platt in the infamous Miami Shootout comes to mind) so your "twaddle" comment is just that: twaddle that's not based on objective reality.
Please explain the mechanism by which the "energy" you referred can "change a guy's mind" if he's aggressive and determined.
Please explain the difference between "sufficient" and "appropriate" penetration when it comes to self defense. Sufficient is enough to reach the vitals, the contrary being insufficient to reach the vitals. Where does "appropriate" fit in here?
I respectfully disagree with your comment "The projectile behavior in soft tissue is the single most important aspect of the entire equation." The single most important aspect of the equation is shot placement. The most effective bullet in existence has no effect if it misses the target.
Tomac
jglsprings
New member
ZVP - why is it that the trend happens to be high capacity 9mm's>
USMCGrunt - Holy crap, I just flashed back to the 80s! LOL
Pilot - Seriously???
Onward Allusion - Not a trend. It's been a fact since the late 80's.
WOW, I just had one of those flashbacks too. They talked about these when I was a kid. Thanks guys I thought it was just me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Nine
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Sweet Shooter
New member
Hey you guys, if you don't want to chat about it and you're getting flashbacks go someplace else.
@ Tomac... I agree with you to a point. I just believe that the 9mm, with a proper projectile is WAY more capable than most give it credit for. And LEO industry is starting to lean in that direction too (I have that first hand).
Energy= the projectile is rotating at several thousand RPMs and needs to be able to do that in soft tissue (as well as in flight), the 9mm has that energy. When I said "quite literally" I meant that... like a meat blender.
By "appropriate penetration" vs "sufficient" I'm postulating that for the 9mm (under) penetration is not an issue in close quarters, and that it's better for that projectile not to exit but dump as much energy in the soft tissue as possible. But you knew that.
Edit to add: "Single most important aspect..." I was (talking about external ballistics) assuming the prerequisite to hit the target where you need to. And I'd like to suggest that the ability of one bullet to neutralize a threat (save your own life as opposed to end another), is more important than having the ability to put more than one into a single target. However the fact that there are often multiple threats tells us that higher capacity is probably better.
-SS-
@ Tomac... I agree with you to a point. I just believe that the 9mm, with a proper projectile is WAY more capable than most give it credit for. And LEO industry is starting to lean in that direction too (I have that first hand).
Energy= the projectile is rotating at several thousand RPMs and needs to be able to do that in soft tissue (as well as in flight), the 9mm has that energy. When I said "quite literally" I meant that... like a meat blender.
By "appropriate penetration" vs "sufficient" I'm postulating that for the 9mm (under) penetration is not an issue in close quarters, and that it's better for that projectile not to exit but dump as much energy in the soft tissue as possible. But you knew that.
Edit to add: "Single most important aspect..." I was (talking about external ballistics) assuming the prerequisite to hit the target where you need to. And I'd like to suggest that the ability of one bullet to neutralize a threat (save your own life as opposed to end another), is more important than having the ability to put more than one into a single target. However the fact that there are often multiple threats tells us that higher capacity is probably better.
-SS-
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My carry gun is 15+1...
But I didn't get it for its ability to hold 16 rounds. I went in looking for a small revolver and came back with it. I have if because it fits my hand well. And as it turns out I shoot it well and it functions well. It just happens to be a double stack.
But I didn't get it for its ability to hold 16 rounds. I went in looking for a small revolver and came back with it. I have if because it fits my hand well. And as it turns out I shoot it well and it functions well. It just happens to be a double stack.
I wonder if a lot has to do with a shift much like the military use to be. Before the “FOB” type of combat zones where even support guys could find themselves in close combat, most of the support troops rarely were proficient with their issued rifle or sidearm. Annual qualification were almost a joke.
The “beat” cops are under so much scrutiny for using lethal force that I think the lawyer-mentality management put more focus on liability than stopping crime. Most of the ammo and training funds are used for their anti-terrorism, SWAT type units and they become the elite with the most trigger time; the street cops just don’t get the training and attention but they garner more scrutiny when pulling their sidearm….just my opinion from the military perspective.
If trigger time helps with accuracy, you can see why those who get less training will shoot more rounds if lethal force is necessary. I’m assuming most are taught center-of-mass for engagements and keep shooting until the target is neutralized. The higher capacity 9mm helps in the equation. Another major factor is that hotter, larger calibers don’t work well with smaller-statured officers, especially when you cut out more trigger time and practice.
ROCK6
The “beat” cops are under so much scrutiny for using lethal force that I think the lawyer-mentality management put more focus on liability than stopping crime. Most of the ammo and training funds are used for their anti-terrorism, SWAT type units and they become the elite with the most trigger time; the street cops just don’t get the training and attention but they garner more scrutiny when pulling their sidearm….just my opinion from the military perspective.
If trigger time helps with accuracy, you can see why those who get less training will shoot more rounds if lethal force is necessary. I’m assuming most are taught center-of-mass for engagements and keep shooting until the target is neutralized. The higher capacity 9mm helps in the equation. Another major factor is that hotter, larger calibers don’t work well with smaller-statured officers, especially when you cut out more trigger time and practice.
ROCK6
I agree that a hi-cap 9mm is a good thing. I also think that we are overlooking another reason for "more being better".... I'm thinking that a hi-cap gun will leave you armed even after you miss with a few rounds..... of course, during the stress of a gunfight, nobody would miss.... would they? If you miss three of your six from a revolver, or three of your seven (or eight) from your 1911, you've just lost half your capacity for ending the fight. A hi-cap gun gives you more shots at hand, just in case you miss.
And, if you watch the news reports, it seems that bad guys are traveling in larger groups these days.
And, if you watch the news reports, it seems that bad guys are traveling in larger groups these days.
I am assuming the move away from revolvers towards high capacity semi-autos may have something to do with the lack of older officers telling new recruits, "I really wish we could go back to revolvers.". Many current police chiefs started their careers at the end of the revolver era, but none of them seem interested in switching back. The motto I always heard from officers years ago was "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."
Independent George
New member
And I think that all those semi-autos with a ~4" barrel should be called a mid-size rather than a compact.I object to the term "hi-cap", but not for the usual reasons. To me a hi-cap 9mm should have standard magazines that hold no less than 17 rounds. All of these 13-15 round 9mm's should be called mid-caps.