Hey let's get something straight guys

this leads to the question- the remaining bullet in that blown up stainless gun, in the previous pictures- what is its weight in grains, what is its diameter, and what powder charge was behind it ?

there are many, many speeds of powders- simply go to the fastest one, put the heaviest bullet in, KABOOM the gun blows up, if it has a large capacity cartridge.

that doesn't mean 5 grains of the SLOWEST powder, will blow up a gun as strong as the ROA- as a matter of fact, I'd bet money at Vegas House Odds, that the slowest smokeless powder 5 grains in an ROA, could not blow up the gun, using the proper size/weight bullet.

for instance, look at 20N29 (Vihtavuori) powder, it's even slower than H870- and H870 was an artillery shell powder that is very, very slow and low pressure, due to the huge amounts used in artillery and very heavy bullet.

now the kicker- the ROA was proof tested with full cylinders of Bullseye, the 6th fastest smokeless powder on the entire chart-we are talking about a very, very strong gun, fellas. Stainless steel and chrome moly steel, is very, very strong indeed.

I'd wager the ROA would laugh at the slowest powder on the chart, if it could survive the 6th fastest.

If I had to save my life and all I had was smokeless powder and an ROA, I'd load the ROA with the slowest stuff I had, just so I could shoot, if I had to. But again, I'm not recommending it to anyone- don't do it. It's a "just in case" fact.

see link to powder burn rate chart

http://www.varminthunter.org/reloading.shtml

BURNING RATE CHART
Brought to you by www.ReloadBench.com

From fastest to slowest
*** Burn Rate Comparison Chart << FASTEST
1. R-1 (Norma) 59. HS-7 (Hodgdon) 117. Varget (Hodgdon)
2. N310 (Vihtavuori) 60. Blue Dot (Alliant) 118. 5000 (Vectan)
3. Titewad (Hodgdon) 61. 571 (Winchester) 119. AR2208 (ADI)
4. AS- 30N (ADI) 62. N105 (Vihtavuori) 120. 4064 (IMR)
5. Nitro 100 (Accurate) 63. No. 9 (Accurate) 121. 4064 XMR (Accurate)
6. Bullseye (Alliant) 64. Enforcer (Ramshot) 122. 2520 (Accurate)
7. Solo 1000 (Accurate) 65. 4100 (Scot) 123. 4320 (IMR)
8. Red Diamond (Scot) 66. Steel (Alliant) 124. N203 (Norma)
9. AS (Vectan) 67. 2400 (Alliant) 125. N140 (Vihtavuori)
10. Red Dot (Alliant) 68. N110 (Vihtavuori) 126. N540 (Vihtavuori)
11. Promo (Alliant) 69. Lil Gun (Hodgdon) 127. 2700 (Accurate)
12. Titegroup (Hodgdon) 70. R123 (Norma) 128. Big Game (Ramshot)
13. No. 2 (Accurate) 71. H110 (Hodgdon) 129. Reloader 15 (Alliant)
14. American Select (Alliant) 72. 296 (Winchester) 130. H380 (Hodgdon)
15. AA Plus (Winchester) 73. AR2205 (ADI) 131. 760 (Winchester)
16. Clays (Hodgdon) 74. SR-4759 (IMR) 132. Brig 4351 (Scot)
17. N320 (Vihtavuori) 75. N120 (Vihtavuori) 133. H414 (Hodgdon)
18. Competition (Ramshot) 76. 4227 (IMR) 134. N150 (Vihtavuori)
19. Royal D (Scot) 77. H4227 (Hodgdon) 135. N550 (Vihtavuori)
20. WST (Winchester) 78. 5744 XMR (Accurate) 136. 4350 XMR (Accurate)
21. AP- 50N (ADI) 79. 410 (Alliant) 137. 4350 (IMR)
22. HP38 (Hodgdon) 80. N130 (Vihtavuori) 138. 7000 (Vectan)
23. AO (Vectan) 81. SP-3 (Vectan) 139. AR2209 (ADI)
24. 452AA (Winchester) 82. 680 (Winchester) 140. H4350 (Hodgdon)
25. 453 (Scot) 83. N200 (Norma) 141. N204 (Norma)
26. 231 (Winchester) 84. 1680 (Accurate) 142. Hunter (Ramshot)
27. Zip (Ramshot) 85. AR2207 (ADI) 143. Reloader 19 (Alliant)
28. 700X (IMR) 86. H4198 (Hodgdon) 144. N160 (Vihtavuori)
29. Green Dot (Alliant) 87. N133 (Vihtavuori) 145. N560 (Vihtavuori)
30. AS- 50N (ADI) 88. 4198 (IMR) 146. 4831 (IMR)
31. International Clays (Hodgdon) 89. BM1 (ADI) 147. Brig 4831 (Scot)
32. 473AA (Winchester) 90. Brig 4197 (Scot) 148. AR2213SC (ADI)
33. HS-5 (Hodgdon) 91. 2015 XMR (Accurate) 149. N205 (Norma)
34. WSL (Winchester) 92. Brig 3032 (Scot) 150. 3100 XMR (Accurate)
35. Unique (Alliant) 93. Reloader 7 (Alliant) 151. WMR (Winchester)
36. Universal Clays (Hodgdon) 94. 3031 (IMR) 152. H4831 (Hodgdon)
37. N330 (Vihtavuori) 95. Benchmark (Hodgdon) 153. MRP (Norma)
38. AP- 70N (ADI) 96. BM2 (ADI) 154. Reloader 22 (Alliant)
39. Power Pistol (Alliant) 97. N201 (Norma) 155. 785 (Winchester)
40. SR-7625 (IMR) 98. Brig 322 (Scot) 156. H450 (Hodgdon)
41. HS-6 (Hodgdon) 99. AR2219 (ADI) 157. Mag Pro (Accurate)
42. Silhouette (Ramshot) 100. H322 (Hodgdon) 158. N165 (Vihtavuori)
43. WAP (Winchester) 101. X-Terminator (Ramshot) 159. WXR (Winchester)
44. N340 (Vihtavuori) 102. 2230 (Accurate) 160. 7828 (IMR)
45. 540 (Winchester) 103. 748 (Winchester) 161. 8700 (Accurate)
46. Herco (Alliant) 104. Reloader 10X (Alliant) 162. H1000 (Hodgdon)
47. WSF (Winchester) 105. BLC-2 (Hodgdon) 163. AR2217 (ADI)
48. SR-4756 (IMR) 106. AR2206 (ADI) 164. Magnum (Ramshot)
49. AP- 100 (ADI) 107. 2460 (Accurate) 165. Reloader 25 (Alliant)
50. Solo 1250 (Accurate) 108. H335 (Hodgdon) 166. AR2225 (ADI)
51. 3N37 (Vihtavuori) 109. TAC (Ramshot) 167. Retumbo (Hodgdon)
52. 800X (IMR) 110. H4895 (Hodgdon) 168. H870 (Hodgdon)
53. No. 7 (Accurate) 111. 2495 XMR (Accurate) 169. N170 (Vihtavuori)
54. Longshot (Hodgdon) 112. AR2206H (ADI) 170. 24N41 (Vihtavuori)
55. Solo 1500 (Scot) 113. Reloader 12 (Alliant) 171. 50 BMG (Hodgdon)
56. True Blue (Ramshot) 114. 4895 (IMR) 172. AR2218 (ADI)
57. N350 (Vihtavuori) 115. Brig 4065 (Scot) 173. 20N29 (Vihtavuori)
 
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Elmer Kieth was one of my favorite gun writers, used to enjoy reading him in the gun mags back in the day,along with Skeeter Skealton and Jeff Cooper.
If you ever want to read a good book find a copy of Elmer Kieth's book titled Hell I was there, very entertaining reading
 
addendum:

chrome moly vs. stainless

quote:

"The barrel maker must choose the type of steel the barrels are made from. Most often this would be either a chrome-moly steel such as 4140 or a stainless steel such as type 416. The important characteristics of the steel are its machinability, longevity, and strength. Other considerations are secondary, such as its ability to be blued or resistance to corrosion. Almost 100% of the barrels used in competitive bench rest shooting are made from stainless steel. The grades of stainless used for barrels are fairly machinable and offer a longer accuracy life over conventional chrome-moly. They are also more resistant to some of the harsh cleaners used by accuracy shooters. A side benefit is their ability to resist corrosion.

While SS has more resistance to throat erosion, it is still softer than Chrome Moly, so the remainder of the bore may actually have less accurate life due to friction. So, the barrel life question may be a wash between the two materials. Usually, throat erosion is the culprit when a barrel gets "shot out" to the point accuracy starts to suffer. CrMo is harder and more brittle, so it is reportedly more prone to tiny thermal cracks in the throat than stainless.

The main reason custom match grade barrel manufacturers use 416 stainless is simply that it's easier to machine, rifle, and lap to a smooth, close tolerance, uniform bore than CrMo steel."
 
All this talk about reloading has reminded me I've got a brand new can of trail boss I bought to try out,I've been loading 45 colts with 35 grains of pyrodex with 250 grain lead bullets for my NMA with the R&D cylinder. I droped down to some new 200 grain with smokeless lube, The manual I have lists a starting load of 5.5 grains and a max of 6.5 grains with a 200 grain bullet.that Trail Boss powder is really light fluffy stuff so much so they can only fit 9 oz. in a 1 pound can, Just wanted to try something that did'nt require such a fast clean up and would let me shoot a bit longer between cleanings.
 
Captain Crossman

The gun in the second photo was a Taurus stainless steel .357 magnum revolver. That makes the oversized bullet theory a little less plausible because the next size up from .357 is what, 10 mm? A bullet that oversized probably would not have chambered in the first place.

The site where I found that picture blames the blowup on an accidental undercharge of powder. Revolver blowups with "cowboy action loads" seems to be a problem lately and one theory is that smokeless can detonate under those conditions while others say that it was more likely an accidental double charge. The problem with proving the undercharge detonation theory is that you can spend all day trying to recreate this on purpose without it happening.

That bullet may have been in an adjacent cylinder for all I know. Or, maybe the pressure spiked so fast that the gun let go before the bullet had a chance to move a significant amount which supports the theory of detonation. A normal gunpowder explosion is like a bowling pin being hit with a bowling ball, the pin is sent flying but the collision does little or no damage to it. A detonation, like a high explosive such as nitroglycerine or PETN undergoes is like a bowling pin being hit by a bullet from a .22-250, severe damage to the pin yet the pin just barely tips over.

Anyway, my "does this scare you" comment should have been "does this give you respect for nitro powder?"
I have been reloading for just as long as you and I also have not blown up a single gun.
 
B.L.E.
Senior Member

Join Date: 2008-12-20
Posts: 217

I'm not sure if that test proved how strong the ROA is or if it simply proved how erratic nitro powders are when simply lit on fire with a percussion cap. It's quite possible that the powder simply burned and the pressure needed to unseat the balls and push them out of the barrel was below the powder's fast burning threshold.





I believe the test pistol was modified to accept a shotgun primer so it would ignite in a normal fashion- it's been a while since I researched that information, can't exactly remember where it was, but I'll try to find it

here is 5 different ROA's that were converted in various ways, to smokeless powder- it is notable that a few of these guns have the loading info stamped into the cylinder, so there's no doubt what is safe/proofed in the gun- also they use shotgun primers

http://www.muzzleloading.co.uk/nitromuzzleloaders/rugeroldarmy.htm


thanks for info BLE, I've been perusing your older posts, and apparently you have already experimented with the ROA and smokeless powder, by using blackpowder to prime the smokeless in the ROA- with a degree of success. One of your older posts also addresses the empty space in the chamber issue, which may actually be worse than a full cylinder of powder.

i.e. the full cylinder of Bullseye in the ROA test, may be less dangerous than half a cylinder. If an air space developed in the middle, and powder was in the front and back of cylinder, 2 flame fronts/pressure waves would develop, which smash together as detonation, and could then blow the gun open

I'd agree a slow powder drastically underloaded, may be worse than a faster powder filled to the top- I never like air spaces in cartridges or in c/b guns, but sometimes have to live with it

just like detonation of fuels in an automobile or racing engine, creates spark knock/ping and engine damage, from uncontrolled combustion of the gas- not exactly the same principal, because higher octane is actually slower burning fuel, to prevent detonation- but it makes sense the same can happen in a gun.
 
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D. Delozier.

I just got a can of Trail Boss also and tried in in my .357 reloads. Four grains of TB and 158 grain flat point round nose Lasercast bullets chronographs at about 780 fps out of the 5.5 inch Ruger Vaquero and about 900 fps out of the Marlin Cowboy II rifle.
What I really like about this powder is that a double charge runs the case over so you won't accidentally double charge a case. Also, it seems to be pretty accurate in the rifle.
 
smokeless in an ROA- it's been done here

looking through the archives here, there are posts by shooters who loaded ROA's with smokeless on a regular basis, one loaded a rifle with it too- here's the link and posts- the posts and verbage are as found in the thread, not my wording:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163281

Old 2005-02-26, 11:06 PM #10
care-less
Senior Member

Join Date: 2004-06-06
Posts: 136

I believe that the slower burning rifle powders have been sucessfully used as a black powder substitute, but only in large bore black powder rifles. I can't offhand recall the formula; but I have read the info and found it interesting. I tried it in a black powder rifle ( a very heavily built 1" across the flats 54 cal). It seemed to work rather well. I do not know of any literature on slow burning powders being substituted in cap and ball revolvers. I have however used unique for many years in an Old Army. I basically use moderate loads for the 44 special and have had no problems. Wouldn't even know where to start with slow burning magnum powders; and could not recommend that you try it either.
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Old 2009-01-26, 04:07 PM #11
gunsmithing
Member

Join Date: 2007-05-22
Posts: 25

I have loaded and fired the Ruger Old Army with smokless loads. The method is not for beginners. First see how many grains of water your cylinder holds nwith room for the bullet.(per chamber) Then look at the charts for what smokeless powder cartridge holds that much water. Mine equaled the 45 colt auto magnum. Then load for a light load in that cartridge. Remember to always seat your bullet so the nose is even with the face of the cylinder. If you get it even 1/10 of an inch below, pull the bullet, empty the chamber of powder, and start over. The pressures will sky rocket with a smaller burning chamber. DO NOT USE BULLSEYE. It is way too hot, and way too easy to double charge.
If you blow yourself up, it is on you. It worked for me, but not maybe for someone else.
Ruger told me that the cylinders of the Old Army are the same metal as the Blackhawk, and tempered the same. They will withstand 60,000 units for a proof load.
I did find out that the recoil caused the bullets to come out of the chambers and tie up the gun. This is because you cannot crimp them into place like the cartridge is able to do.
I fired 45 auto loads, and light 45 magnum loads with no problems other than the jumping of the bullet.
If it will not go off, put 1 grain,(I mean 1 small kernal) of blackpowder in the base. This causes the ignition to light up the smokeless better.
I was using 2400.
Remember this is a stunt for the VERY ADVANCED RELOADER. So all you kids, when you blow yourself up, do not come crying to me. I have been doing this reloading business for 30 years, for myself and the government. I still mess up on occasion, like when I mixed up on powders and used Herco instead of 2400. I ruined a good single action 44 special on that one. SO if you think you can follow the directions perfectly, understand what I am saying, and have BIG BALLS and a gun you are willing to destroy, go ahead. BUT ONE MESS UP AND THAT MAY BE ALL. TOTALLY ALL."
 
I just PM'd the member named "care-less" and he replied, perhaps he may chime in on this thread- here's his reply- I expected this, because common sense tells me, any stainless gun tested to 60,000 CUP, isn't going to blow up with a measley 4-5 grains of powder ! The ROA cylinder is in the same league as a model 1903 military Springfield, and M-98 Mauser bolt actions- and we all know how strong those are. There are many commercial pump and lever rifles on the market new today, that won't proof to 60,000 CUP. This is why I'd bet Vegas odds the ROA would NOT blow up with small loads of smokeless, and why in an emergency pinch I'd do it, if my life depended on it- but otherwise I would not. I like the big boom/smoke of BP, it's part of the payoff.




care-less
Senior Member

Join Date: 2004-06-06
Posts: 136

Re: smokeless powder in the ROA ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrossman
I read your post about using smokeless powder in the Ruger Old Army, following 44 special loads-did you actually use loose powder, a percussion cap, and a round ball ? or was this a cartridge conversion cylinder ?


ANSWER:
I used loose power just as if it was black powder. compressed the ball down onto it and fired away. Worked fine! Just wanted to try it, and I kept the loads light. The revolver is plenty strong.
 
thanks for info BLE, I've been perusing your older posts, and apparently you have already experimented with the ROA and smokeless powder, by using blackpowder to prime the smokeless in the ROA- with a degree of success. One of your older posts also addresses the empty space in the chamber issue, which may actually be worse than a full cylinder of powder.
Click to expand...

Yes I did experiment with this and it was this experiment that got me to thinking that nitro powder really needs a sealed primer to ignite it.

I'm not saying what the loads were, if anyone wants to try this, they are on their own.
 
>>>I just got a can of Trail Boss also and tried in in my .357 reloads. Four grains of TB and 158 grain flat point round nose Lasercast bullets chronographs at about 780 fps out of the 5.5 inch Ruger Vaquero and about 900 fps out of the Marlin Cowboy II rifle.

What I really like about this powder is that a double charge runs the case over so you won't accidentally double charge a case. Also, it seems to be pretty accurate in the rifle.<<<

Indeed I think that's exactly what they were trying to accomplish with that powder no? A friend shooting next to me blew up his S&W Mod. 66 .357 shooting S&W factory .38 specials one day! Thankfully neither one of us was hurt (amazingly so since I was standing three feet away next to the revolver when it blew) and near as we could determine the .38 round must have been double charged in the factory. The fact that it was a new S&W revolver shooting S&W branded ammo made it pretty easy for S&W - they sent him a new gun with a trite letter of apology...which he immediately sold and bought a Ruger Redhawk! He was traumatized by the event. ;)

When I start loading .45 Colts I'm going to very seriously consider Trail Boss.

Were it not for the variables of positive ignition and several other vexing issues that we have in cap & ball guns I don't doubt for a second that a safe load of Trail Boss could be worked up for the ROA, but as I've read and thought about this I just don't see how it ever works well with caps. (Obligatory forum safety addition: Not a suggestion, just thinking out loud.)

Those 209 primed conversion cylinders sure are interesting however!

Regards,
Oly
 
>>>Yes I did experiment with this and it was this experiment that got me to thinking that nitro powder really needs a sealed primer to ignite it.

I'm not saying what the loads were, if anyone wants to try this, they are on their own.<<<

Well there you have it. As I suspected it certainly is possible, it's just that the variables and the somewhat weak ignition of a cap just don't make it practical (or remotely wise for 99.9% of people).

What a long journey! This was pretty much what I was wondering in the first place a few days ago.

Thanks,
Oly
 
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