Here's an interesting question -- menatl partient's gun rights???

JJB - don't get me wrong, I don't WANT mental patients running around with guns anyway.

So let's discuss how to realistically keep guns out of people's hands, in a free society - or, what we'll find out, is that you can't until you have a very UNfree society.

Does the brady bill as it stands keep guns out of a mental patient's hands? He can still buy privately, right?

Ergo, the "private sales" loophole allows a "disturbed person" to buy a firearm.

Okay, private sales are gone; but since Brady records are destroyed, how do you know if he doesn't ALREADY own firearms? I know, you need licencing and registration, so the police know where to confiscate. Or, in absence of licencing you can kick mental patient's door in. After all, he may have bought a gun pre-registration, might as well kick door in anyway.

But it's so easy for prohibited person to burglarize one from someone allowed to own a firearm. Therefore, mandatory storage rules are in place for firearms licence holders, and storage devices can be inspected by police at any time (like in England).

Obviously, I've gone too far; but you'll see all of the above in the next 10 years, you can bet the farm.

I know that as a gunowner you don't support restrictions on the law-abiding, etc. that cut as deep as I've described. Yet even that which I've described wouldn't prevent a prohibited person access to a weapon.

Non-brady felon restrictions work at the point of arrest - you now have another thing you can charge a prohibited person with. But that does not satisfy the "prevention" side of it that democrats speak of - since the armed person has been arrested he's probably hurt someone already.

Just like saying "ban the guns" means nothing until you describe the means of enforcement, how do you suggest enforcement of "felons/mental patients can't own guns"? It would have to be MORE severe than current Brady (already a violation of people's rights) to have any effect on someone determined on obtaining a firearm.


Battler.
 
The definition "mental patient" is not specific, and can and will be used against gun owners as a whole.
Just like the "felon" thing.

You can be a current or former mental patient without any risk for violence to yourself or others.

Just like there are non-violent felons.

Many people, and I suspect some of the members of TFL are, by definition, mental patients.
A mental patient is a person who has been evaluated, diagnosed, treated, or consulted by a psychologist, psychiatrist, clinical therapist, social worker, etc.

If you have seen a social worker for marriage counsolling (sp?) you are a mental patient.
Just the fact that you were treated, or seen, by the psychologist makes you a patient of a mental health worker.
In other words, a "mental patient".

Persons with impotence caused by stress often seek help by psychologists.

So if you have a crappy marriage or can't get it up, should you be restricted from firearms ownership?

The reason I don't support laws restricting the rights of "mental patients", "ex-cons", and others is that the definition describing such individuals is so broad it can, and is misused.

Yes, if Chas.Manson is paroled (felon & mental patient) I certainly don't want him to have any guns, or even sharp sticks.

But, if someone stole a road sign from the interstate twenty years ago (a felony as they are quite expensive & Federal property), should their right to self-protection be restricted?
Or, if you are a war vet and saw a shrink to deal with the recurrent nightmares, should you have your guns taken away?

Laws are malleable, as are the definitions of the target population.
Don't buy into the scheme.

I think that if a community wants to remove any Rights from any person there must be a public proceeding dealing with that specific person and the spcific Right(s) in question and a decision will be made by a jury.

Just like you are innocent of a crime until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, as a Citizen of the USA you are entitled every Right protected by the Constitution unless it is proven beyond all doubt that the retention of the Right in question by one person will specifically and immediately infringe upon the Right's of another.

Note, our Rights are not granted by the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
The Right's of Americans are God given human rights that are only spelled out and guaranteed by the Constitution & Bill of Rights.
If the 2nd Amendment is ever repealed I still have the Right to keep and bear arms.
Just because it isn't in the Constitution doesn't exclude something from existence. Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights is there any mention of children or their Rights.
Nearly everyone would agree that children are people, but there is no specific definition in the Constitution of what a person is. Or who is a person. So, in the strictest interpretation, the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not address children at all.
But, I challenge anyone, including the gungrabbers, to state that children do not have any Rights.
I think that the insistence that we can own and keep firearm "because the Bill of Rights says so" may actually hurt our platform in the long run.
Would any of you "give up" if the 2nd was repealed?

I have certain Rights because I am a human.

The fact that certain Rights are ennumerated (albeit sometimes vaguely) in a nationally recognized document is just icing on the cake.

-Kframe



[This message has been edited by Kframe (edited May 04, 2000).]
 
The 2nd amendment hasn't stopped one gun law, the shooting culture has.

Laws are already in place in violation of RKBA.

So, in essence, the 2nd is gone already.


battler.
 
Interesting question, sure enough.

The following link is to the BATF Legal Guidelines page. The questions from Form 4473 are there.
http://www.sportables.com/BATF.htm
BATF Legal Guidelines

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT BRANCH
WASHINGTON, DC 20226
202-927-8330

Following are excerpts from The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Public Law 90-618
Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, ATF P 5300.4 (10-95)


From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only buy a firearm within his own State except that he may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. [18 U.S.C. 922(A)(3) and (5), 922(B)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if he arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in his own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may order a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U.S.C. 922(A)(3) and (5), 922(B)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms?

Yes, a person who--
1. Is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
2. Is a fugitive from justice;
3. Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
4. Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
5. Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
6. Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
7. Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship; or
8. Is subject to a court order that restrain the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
...cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(g), 27 CFR 178.32]

From the Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation:

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1994 (Brady Law) requires that the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) be utilized by any Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) to determine whether a prospective firearms transfer would violate federal or state laws. In this regard, when an FFL conducts a NICS check, a name search is conducted for any matching records in three different databases. These include the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) which contains information on wanted persons; the Interstate Identification Index (III) which contains criminal history records; and the NICS Index which contains prohibited persons as outlined in the Brady Act, such as individuals who have received dishonorable discharges from the armed services, citizen renunciants, mental defectives, illegal/unlawful aliens and others.

Firearm transfers must be proceeded by a NICS check. Any purchaser who receives a denial response may file an appeal in writing to NICS.

"STRAW PURCHASES"

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use "straw purchasers" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchases of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

This article does not purport to cover sales to persons who purchase firearms with the intent of making gifts of such firearms to other persons. In instances such as this, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.

Definitions:
Dealer, Licensee, Licensed Dealer, FFL - All are terms to describe a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer.
Unlicensed Person - Any person who does not have a license to sell firearms.
Form 4473 - The Firearms Transaction Record, also called the "yellow sheet" that is the permanent record of any firearm sale to an unlicensed person.

Copyright 1998-99 Sportables, Inc. All rights reserved. Do not duplicate or redistribute in any form.


My read on it is, have you been Judged to be mentally unfit? By a Judge, or Grand Jury.

Or a Dr. working on behalf of either an investigation, or something as simple as heirs to a large will trying to legally bump each other off by using a Dr's diagnosis of instability to steal each others entitlements...

Odd example, but possible in todays legal circus. If that (adjudicated person) later wanted to own a firearm, they'd likely be jailed for trying falsifying a legal document. A loophole, but very possible.

Best Regards,
Don

------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 
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