"Here Come the Cops ! NOW What Do I Do?'

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I am very surprised no one has mentioned what in my opinion is a very important issue. Have a good lawyer friend that is in the erea, so you can explain the situation to him and he can give you crucial advice. even if it means having som 2 phone actian him on one line and 911 on teh otehr i think it could give you a great advantage.

also once you are handcuffed he can be around to amke sure youa re not pushed any farther than legally allowed,and if you are taken to the station you will have legel representation by someone you trust right off the bat.

just my 2c
 
I am very surprised no one has mentioned what in my opinion is a very important issue. Have a good lawyer friend that is in the erea, so you can explain the situation to him and he can give you crucial advice. even if it means having som 2 phone actian him on one line and 911 on teh otehr i think it could give you a great advantage.
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Great point, and I'd also point out that most newer cell phones have a speaker option. So you can stay on the line with 911 and keep your hands free and visible.
 
Drop it. Dave is so right.

1. If you are carrying a nondrop safe gun - ditch it.

2. As long as a gun is in your hand for a long, slow, safe put down - you can quickly switch to a firing position. That's in some LEO training films. That's why they might just shoot you if you don't comply.

3. So if the cop loses his badge, that's nice. You are shot - perhaps several times.

But, if you get shot for worrying about a gun or not carrying a safe gun to drop - score one for evolution.
 
But, if you get shot for worrying about a gun or not carrying a safe gun to drop - score one for evolution.
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Oh yeah, that's real nice. And how about the guy people all over this board and every other are preaching about? You know, the one that can't afford a real nice gun? He's got a right to defend himself too, right? Let's see now, are Jennings guns drop safe? Ravens? Hi-points? How about old S&W revolvers? Think about it.
 
What to say post shooting

Typically, the only thing to say after a shooting, even for LEOs and off dutys is a public safety statement:
1) Shots were fired
2) Approx. direction of shots
3) # of suspects/vehicle description
4) Where'd they go

that's it. The first two are to ascertain if anyone else may have been hit (in homes, bystanders, etc.). The last two are to find the suspects that caused this DF encounter.

As for gun-in-hand scenario. Pretty simple. Do not, if feasible, have gun-in-hand. Holster it, when tactically safe or officers are on scene, and obey ALL commands slowly and deliberately. Period.

Nothing is 100%. You may follow all above advice and still get lead poisoning. You may follow none and get a handshake. Best to play the odds of survival.
 
Futher, if you're so twitchy that you will shoot someone moving in a slow deliberate manner to comply with your order to disarm, you need some serious vacation time or a different occupation.
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Any cop who would shoot in this situation deserves to lose their badge, if not their liberty. That's "trigger-happy".
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Glenn Meyer said,
3. So if the cop loses his badge, that's nice. You are shot - perhaps several times.

But, if you get shot for worrying about a gun or not carrying a safe gun to drop - score one for evolution.
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Very good, Glenn, it isn't about the the cops and what should happen to them if they do something wrong, but about surviving the encounter regardless of what sort of cops may roll up.
 
2. As long as a gun is in your hand for a long, slow, safe put down - you can quickly switch to a firing position. That's in some LEO training films. That's why they might just shoot you if you don't comply.
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So the cops are gonna shoot me as I'm slowly laying the gun on the ground? Sorry, but that's (how can I say this without it being edited) dookie. You, and the others of your opinion are giving cops all over the US a bad name. And if you're cops and would shoot in this situation, you need an instant career change because YOU are the bad cops you talk about.

And I'm outta this one.
 
Its not that the cops are going to shoot you as you're slowey laying your gun on the ground, it is that your plan to do so against their orders dramatically raises the odds that they might. And... All together now in harmony, the threads is about not getting shot. And the shooting will likely happen relatively soon in your movement cycle as the fact that you are (a) moving and (b) moving the gun register as they are hard front-sight focused on your COM.

But hey, it is a free country. You don't have to agree with or take the advise. The odds of your having to follow it, regardless, are low.
 
Guns too cheap to drop and guns too expensive to drop - gotta make you laugh.

Also, let's think about the comparative odds of getting killed when your 25 ACP Raven goes off on the ground as to when an officer fires several 40 SW rounds at you.

Drop your Judge, tough guy.
 
Sorry Barney... I'm very likely going to lay it on the ground gently.
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It's not the Barney you have to worry about, Bill, it is the highly trained and keyed up SWAT-type that has seen way to many movements "in a slow deliberate manner" turn into attacks to allow them, particularly when you still have a weapon in your hand. You are already demonstrating that you will not comply with the officer's lawful orders (drop the gun), don't expect it to get any better when you make it worse (do not move).
Dropping some guns can potentially discharge the weapon if it lands on a hard surface.
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If your gun is not drop-safe and that is a worry for you, I would suggest changing guns. If that is not possible, you should not wait at all, but the minute LE rolls up put the gun down and step away.
Futher, if you're so twitchy that you will shoot someone moving in a slow deliberate manner to comply with your order to disarm, ....
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There is the problem. I'm not ordinarily twitchy, but you are not complying with my order to disarm. In fact, you are acting directly contrary to my requests and placing me in further danger of my life. That might make me sort of twitchy.

Any cop who would shoot in this situation deserves to lose their badge, if not their liberty. That's "trigger-happy".
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I suppose the counter to that is any citizen standing around with a gun in his hands after a shooting who does not do exactly what the officer says deserves whatever happens to them. And don't expect the cop to lose badge or liberty. Shooting an armed suspect who does not follow commands rarely gets LEOs in much trouble.

So the cops are gonna shoot me as I'm slowly laying the gun on the ground?
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No, the cops are going to shoot you because you are disregarding their instructions and putting them in danger while you have a gun in your hand.
 
If Mas is reading this one - I recall him showing in LFI-1 a film of a man with a pistol grip shotgun with his back turned to the officer. He was ordered to put it down but instead started to turn to the officer and started to slowly put it down. Question was what to do. I opined that the turn, noncompliance and slow movement was enough for the shoot. As the film continued, the point was made about how easy it was when the gun was almost grounded to shoot the officer before he could respond.

Since I've also seen folks like Greg Hamilton draw and shoot even when covered by a reasonably trained person, the gun that is your hand is a threat. That's why a reasonable person should understand the need to drop it.

Let's turn the tables. You come across a BG with his back turned to you but carrying a gun in your house. (Of course, you just shoot him in the back, repeatedly - it's the internet!). However, you say - Drop the gun! The person says, 'I will slowly put it down' and very slowly starts to do that. Think they can shoot you, while you have your thumb up your butt. In fact, when you start to bellow more commands - that's the time to shoot you as the diversion of your attention to your verbalims diverts your attentional resources and slows you down.
 
Also, let's think about the comparative odds of getting killed when your 25 ACP Raven goes off on the ground as to when an officer fires several 40 SW rounds at you.
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They don't compare. Problem arises when the gun is dropped, goes off, and hits nothing. But, all those .40s that were pointed at you speak in unison, and you die for doing what you are told. "Drop-safe" will never be the hot feature for the guy with a family making 20 grand a year. Inexpensive will be the key feature, and everybody's kidding themselves here if they think different. The comment about getting shot for not dropping a non drop-safe gun and "scoring one for evolution" would be considered elitist in most major metropolitan areas. In the inner-cities, it would be considered downright racist. (Though I doubt that was your intention)
Let's face it, most of the times anybody is in this situation, there is no reason he can't reholster or even repocket before the cops get there. And, there are too many variables to cover all of them here. But, in that one in a million chance, what's wrong with holding the gun away from the body with a single finger through the trigger guard and laying it down? Shoot somebody who is obviously doing that, and you need to be prosecuted, period.
 
But it is not obvious.

Look... LEOs get shot in similar circumstances doing, among other things, what you are advocating. LEOs who should know better, but get distracted by the moment and assume, sometimes fatally, that they are recognized for what they are and what the are doing. LEOs, whom the shooting LEOs, trust me, deeply regret shooting after the fact. Cause LEOs aren't in the business of shooting good guys, let alone peers. And despite the deep regret, shared institutionally, nobody will hold them accountable the mistake for once the facts involving disobeying commands and movement are brought to light. Because... the mistake is on the shotee's part. It is the shootee's fault given the circumstances, disobeying and moving as an unknown during a high risk situation, not the shooter's. There will be no prosecution; take that to the bank.

Do. Not. Do it.
 
Reholster
911~stay on the line until told to hang up
Stay on scene
Hand them your lawyers response card and dont say anything (believe it or not the police are not your friend)
Go down town (let lawyer speak for you!)
 
Shoot somebody who is obviously doing that, and you need to be prosecuted, period.


And your bullet riddled body will be a prosecution exhibit. Like Diallo's. It is conceivable that an officer might be charged. However, let's not forget, if they do get charged - it is because YOU HAVE HOLES IN YOU!

My comment on evolution was aimed at the Internet gene pool. Not responding to a direct command by an officer was a selection factor that works against you.
 
If I see that officer pull up, or more likely hear them close by, I am on the ground spread eagle gun slid away from me before he gets out of the car.

Then listening and complying immediately.

(believe it or not the police are not your friend)
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No, he's not. He's not being paid to be my friend. He's being paid to make me and you safe. However, he is (95% of them are) on my side once he knows what went down. Being my friend or being on my side is not, however, reason to talk any more than is necessary, he has a job to do and recording/remembering what you say is part of it.
 
It's not the Barney you have to worry about, Bill, it is the highly trained and keyed up SWAT-type that has seen way to many movements "in a slow deliberate manner" turn into attacks to allow them, particularly when you still have a weapon in your hand. You are already demonstrating that you will not comply with the officer's lawful orders (drop the gun), don't expect it to get any better when you make it worse (do not move).
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So... you're saying an officer is justified in shooting when ever he sees someone move in some manner that HE thinks constitutes preparation for an attack? Even if that move constitutes part of "obeying" the officer's orders? That's bogus.

I'm much more worried about those officers opening fire on my fuzzy-behind if that gun goes off when it hits the pavement. "Carry a drop safe gun"? Most of them are pretty good, however any part can fail when subjected to sharp impact stress. This is NOT when I want to test how good the the manufacturer's QC department is.

it is the highly trained and keyed up SWAT-type
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If said SWAT type is "Highly Trained" and will shoot someone for attempting to carefully put down the gun while holding it by the muzzle or the end of the triggerguard then I suggest we have a serious problem in this country... or we need a new definition of "highly trained".

Or maybe we should be striving for "highly brained" instead of highly trained. I expect SWAT types to have better discipline and better tactics than that.

There is the problem. I'm not ordinarily twitchy, but you are not complying with my order to disarm. In fact, you are acting directly contrary to my requests and placing me in further danger of my life. That might make me sort of twitchy.
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So, based on the above statement, when you say "Drop the gun" and the subject holds their arm out, gun by the muzzle and begins to bend down to put it on the ground, you get nervous because he didn't comply exactly with your instructions? Then please tell me what I should do when an officer says:
"Freeze!" - should I chatter my teeth and shiver?
"Don't Move! Show me your hands!" - Well, which one?

Since I dislocated my shoulder last March, I've been unable to raise my right arm above my head. If you tell me to put my arms "all the way up", I still can't get the right hand any higher than my head. Does that give you legal cause to shoot me? I think not.

Based on your statements, how about we codify it in law? If a subject drops the gun after police tell him to do so and it discharges, any officer who fires on the subject will be charged with homicide or attempted homicide, as appropriate. Officers who shoot the subject and their agencies will be severably liable for the injuries sustained.

That seems fair. After all, I'm only doing what you told me to do.

And before I'm accused of cop-bashing here, I'm a big supporter of LE, though I am also a critic of some of the policies and some of the thinking in LE circles as well.
 
Forget it, Bill. Sounds like a lot of the arguments I gave. If this is indicative of the attitude of most cops, we're in worse shape than even I thought.
 
It isn't an attitude. It is an understanding, based on law, policy, training, and common practice of how not to be shot by the police in the kinds of instances we're talking about. An understanding we are trying to relay to you. We get that you disagree. We get that you want to "what if" the subject to death in support of your disagreement. We get that you'll assign negative attributes to us when we don't concede your points. And despite that, we're still trying to relay our understanding to you; cause we don't want good guys getting shot.

The "how to not get advice" is the same for LEOs as non-LEOs, by the way and in case you were wondering, except for stressing the communication of LEO status visually with a badge and verbally as soon and as loadly as possible. Don't disobey commands and move trying to flash that tin, though.
 
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