Henry went home for a (short) visit

W

WyMark

New member
I recently bought a Henry Big Boy Steel in .38/.357. It's a blast to shoot, but it was hitting close to a foot high at 25 yards. I could bust clays all day with it out to 100 yards, shooting 158gr .38 from Freedom Munitions, but I had to hold almost a foot low to hit them. I never did try .357, that would probably change the POI a bit but I didn't think it would change it by 8-12".

So I email their CS and they said they wanted a gunsmith to check it out, and immediately sent a UPS label. I shipped it last week, they received it on Monday and sent it back on Wednesday. I'll get it Monday according to UPS. That's pretty fast turn around, so I'm anxious to see what they found or fixed.
 
Don't get your hopes up and yes the .357 rounds could very well differ that much in POI putting you right in line with your sight picture. I have a .44 mag Rossi and although it is obviously capable of firing .44 specials it is certainly designed for the mags. The mag rounds are dead on where ever I put the sights, now throw in the .44 special and I have the exact same situation you are describing. I can drop the rear sight to the lowest setting and it I still have to aim almost a foot below the intended target at 25 yards. This is a nearly identical situation as my Ruger .44 mag SBH revolver as well. I have to pick which round I want to sight the gun in for and then the other one I have to wag for elevation. Windage is straight on with both firearms but elevation is a huge difference. Hopefully they can get it a bit closer for you with those specials, if not, start slinging the .357's, its what the rifle was designed for and they are more fun anyway...:D
 
There are .38 Special loads ranging from pop gun to blaster and .357 loads going up from there. There is no way all those loads can shoot to the same point of aim, and few sights that can handle such a wide range of adjustment.

Jim
 
I meant to add this but first my disclaimer, I googled the cause of this a while back, this is not my superior intellect shining through, I am no physicist, hell I am not even that smart, but anyway from what I gathered it is due to muzzle rise and the affect on the round in the barrel. The slower special round stays in the barrel longer to be affected by the muzzle rise while the faster magnum rounds are out of the barrel before it can be affected by it rising. Is this right or wrong? Got me, but it is what I took from the article.
 
No, that is correct. It is most noticeable in handguns, but also is seen in rifles. There is an amusing true story about the state police pistol instructor who was introducing his troops to the .357 Magnum as part of the transition from .38 Special. He was unable to account for the fact that the new and higher velocity cartridge actually shot lower than the old one. So he advised the troops that the change was deliberate so that a bullet fired at a evildoer's midsection would hit him in the crotch, giving the bad guy a permanent change in his "orientation" and reducing his tendency to future crime.

Jim
 
solution

When I was shooting and carrying a lot of .357 carbine and revolver, I discovered that in an issue S&W 686, my Marlin carbine, Ruber B-hawk, and later in an old Highway Patrolman, that .38 spl. 148 gr wadcutters, and full house 125 gr. mag loads, shot to close enough point of aim that I could use them interchangeably.

That allowed for some mild practice. But any other load did not cooperate so well, and required a separate zero. Eventually, when the need for a handgun/carbine combo seemed to lessen, I dedicated each firearm to a purposed load and have left it that way:
*M28 -125 JHP gr mags
*B-hawk -158 SWC mid range lead
*Marlin - 158 mag JHP

The only .38 WC I shoot these days is some occassionally in my worn Chief's SPecial.
 
Lots of good info, thanks. .38 and .357 hit about the same from my LCR, but that's a 2" barrel. I would expect a different POI shooting 158gr .38 vs 158gr .357, but 12"?

If Freedom ever sends my .357 that I ordered I'll test it out, but first I have to wait till Monday and find out what Henry has to say. I was camping this week and out of cell range, so I didn't get the shipping notice till I got back late Friday.
 
I never did try .357
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... ... ... unless there was some other issue I am not sure why you called Henry without trying the 357. If you were using really cheap "plinking" 38 special rounds and the sights were set for 357 I could see there being a difference of 12". Not just the velocity difference, but also just a difference in ammo. Sometimes the same velocity ejecta will have a significantly different POI.

I like that Henry too it back though. I've had a few interactions with the company and have to say I am quite impressed. I would definitely look at them first for any sort of lever gun.

The slower special round stays in the barrel longer to be affected by the muzzle rise while the faster magnum rounds are out of the barrel before it can be affected by it rising.
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I'm not sure this is entirely correct. Depending on the action, I don't think there is significant felt recoil until the ejecta leaves the barrel on a locked action. The opposite and equal reaction is mostly internal until the system opens up.
The barrel may rise, but it is due to the actions of the shooter, not the recoil. If you are expecting heavier recoil you may pull the barrel down instinctively as a flinch, so that would cause it.
Here is a slow motion video of a pistol being shot to demonstrate what I am saying.
I am pretty sure I read a post or article or excerpt from a book that went into the physics details at some point in the past, but I have no idea where. My guess is it was a post from someone here, and I know there are a few members around with a background in physics who could shed light on the issue.
 
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That thought had accured to me in reference to perceived recoil being the culprit. I have fire numerous rounds from a bench rest where my only real input was aligning the sights and pulling the trigger, the rifle was free of any input from me in reference to the recoil. The results mirrored the same discrepancies in refence to the different rounds. So far the only reasonable explanation that I have seen to explain this is time in barrel theory.
 
I can't imagine why a special load would fly off high like that a magnum would be even worse. It's likely that tinkering with sight replacement will work. It's remotely possible that the bore is hinkey, throwing them out out off of the bore line. It would be interesting to see what a laser bore sighted would show.
 
Well let's see.

1. I didn't call Henry, I email their CS and asked for possible suggestions, and said in the email what loads I was using. They responded that they wanted the gun back.

2. I did start by firing from a bench, but not with a rest. At 25 yards I wasn't sure where I was hitting. I moved up to 10 and verified that I could hit paper, then moved back to 25 and shot offhand. It's a lever carbine, I can hold it pretty steady offhand. Still couldn't tell where I was hitting on the paper target.

Then I shot at clays sitting on Pigeon Perches, stuck in the base of the berm, and I could see the shots hitting dirt about a foot high. I adjusted and moved to 50 and then 100 yards and could bust the clays consistently by holding about a foot low. One shot I held a bit too low and bent the crap out of the rod holding the perch.

I'll post what I get back from Henry hopefully tomorrow.


Edit to add: I put a Skinner Express peep on it and that moved the POI up about 4-5 inches. Much, much nicer than the stock buckhorn rear sight and very highly recommended.
 
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I presumed that you were competent in your situation, that's what makes it so odd.

Barrels are made to fit and a fitted sight is supposed to be pretty much on. Something that is off by twelve minutes seems odd.

Like that peep sight.
 
I adjusted and moved to 50 and then 100 yards and could bust the clays consistently by holding about a foot low.
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You used the same hold at 50 and 100 yards with 38 special and hit 4.3 inch targets consistently?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm
It looks to me like the drop is about 9-12" between 50 and 100 yards.

When I am first sighting in a gun or having any sort of trouble whatsoever, I always use a rest. If I am having an issue and a rest is not available I pack it up.
 
The Henry came back today, so I put the peep back on and immediately went to the range. Shooting at clay on perches at 25-30 yards I was hitting an inch or two high at most. POI with .357 and .38 was about the same.

It was really hot, and my wife went along for the first time ever to shoot both the Henry and LCR, so I didn't really spend a ton of time. Just enough to see that it was hitting much closer to POI than previously. I'll get back out in the near future and spend more time with it. The repair order note simply said "re-crown and adjust sights". There wasn't a whole lot of adjustment in this rear sight, so maybe the re-crowning did the trick. It probably doesn't take much of a defect in the crown to change the POI significantly.
 
I didn't look at the crown before I shipped it and haven't since I got it back. The gunsmith said he re-crowned it, and I wouldn't have any idea how to tell. Other than he said he did and I have no reason to doubt it.
 
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