Help!!!!!
- Thread starter 1873Colt
- Start date
You are both correct; however, replacing a part of the firearm is not the same thing as tampering with the serial number. I would not be so sure it's legal in this case. Having a slide with no serial number may be fine, but my guess is if it has a serial number, and it's the same as the one on the frame, then you can't tamper with it. It is just a guess however.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
The "kid" needs to be punished. There is no benefit to anyone if you let this "slide" or handle it "in house".
Continuously avoiding the consequences of actions is why people continue to act.
I would push it as far as it could go. When it was done, I'd demand restitution for whatever it cost me and I would sue her in small claims court if she didn't pay.
She'll only hate you until she understands causality and she'll be better off, regardless.
Continuously avoiding the consequences of actions is why people continue to act.
I would push it as far as it could go. When it was done, I'd demand restitution for whatever it cost me and I would sue her in small claims court if she didn't pay.
She'll only hate you until she understands causality and she'll be better off, regardless.
youngunz4life
New member
just remember
many of a crimes have been solved because badguy thought he filed off the number. they did file off the serial #, but on some firearms that # still exists in another layer of the firearm.
many of a crimes have been solved because badguy thought he filed off the number. they did file off the serial #, but on some firearms that # still exists in another layer of the firearm.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The relevant law is 18 U.S.C. 922 (k) which reads:
"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,
ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any
firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."
Based on a "I don't want to go to jail" reading of that statute, the Sig Mosquito has a serial number that has been altered. Anybody who knows that the serial number has been altered is guilty of a federal felony crime if they transport, ship, receive, or possess the Sig Mosquito.
I don't see anything in there about "it is OK if it is only on the frame" or "it is OK if there is a serial number somewhere else on the pistol"; but I don't know everything there is to know about this law and it is possible there are other statutes or case law out there. If anyone wants to share those, I would be interested in seeing them.
Looking at Sig Mosquito prices online, the pistol is worth less brand new than what two hours of a lawyer's time go for. I'd just get rid of the pistol at this point (or at least the part with the altered serial number). It isn't worth the potential legal costs to keep it.
You could also try resolving it with the ATF yourself; but you lose the advantage of lawyer-client confidentiality if the ATF decides they want to prosecute someone. If you do go this route, make sure you get the answer in writing directed to the owner of the pistol.
ETA: Found this decision U. S. Vs. Carter, 421 F.3d 909 from the 9th Circuit discussing what "altered" means under 18 USC 922(k). The holding here was:
"In sum, the ordinary meaning of the phrase "altered or obliterated" cannot support the contention that a firearm's serial number must be rendered scientifically untraceable for Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4) to apply. To the contrary, nothing in the language, structural context, legislative history, or purpose of § 2K2.1(b)(4) suggests that any defacement must make tracing impossible or extraordinarily difficult. We hold, therefore, that for the purposes of Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4), a firearm's serial number is "altered or obliterated" when it is materially changed in a way that makes accurate information less accessible. We further hold that, under that standard, a serial number which is not discernable to the unaided eye, but which remains detectable via microscopy, is altered or obliterated."
This would only be relevant to the 9th Circuit though. Texas is in the 5th Circuit which might take a different view. Suffice it to say though, anyone caught in possession of that Sig Mosquito by law enforcement is going to get to go to court and hash that issue out. I haven't priced out what it costs to take a federal felony to the appellate level; but I bet you can buy a lot of new Sig Mosquitos for that price
"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,
ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any
firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."
Based on a "I don't want to go to jail" reading of that statute, the Sig Mosquito has a serial number that has been altered. Anybody who knows that the serial number has been altered is guilty of a federal felony crime if they transport, ship, receive, or possess the Sig Mosquito.
I don't see anything in there about "it is OK if it is only on the frame" or "it is OK if there is a serial number somewhere else on the pistol"; but I don't know everything there is to know about this law and it is possible there are other statutes or case law out there. If anyone wants to share those, I would be interested in seeing them.
Looking at Sig Mosquito prices online, the pistol is worth less brand new than what two hours of a lawyer's time go for. I'd just get rid of the pistol at this point (or at least the part with the altered serial number). It isn't worth the potential legal costs to keep it.
You could also try resolving it with the ATF yourself; but you lose the advantage of lawyer-client confidentiality if the ATF decides they want to prosecute someone. If you do go this route, make sure you get the answer in writing directed to the owner of the pistol.
ETA: Found this decision U. S. Vs. Carter, 421 F.3d 909 from the 9th Circuit discussing what "altered" means under 18 USC 922(k). The holding here was:
"In sum, the ordinary meaning of the phrase "altered or obliterated" cannot support the contention that a firearm's serial number must be rendered scientifically untraceable for Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4) to apply. To the contrary, nothing in the language, structural context, legislative history, or purpose of § 2K2.1(b)(4) suggests that any defacement must make tracing impossible or extraordinarily difficult. We hold, therefore, that for the purposes of Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4), a firearm's serial number is "altered or obliterated" when it is materially changed in a way that makes accurate information less accessible. We further hold that, under that standard, a serial number which is not discernable to the unaided eye, but which remains detectable via microscopy, is altered or obliterated."
This would only be relevant to the 9th Circuit though. Texas is in the 5th Circuit which might take a different view. Suffice it to say though, anyone caught in possession of that Sig Mosquito by law enforcement is going to get to go to court and hash that issue out. I haven't priced out what it costs to take a federal felony to the appellate level; but I bet you can buy a lot of new Sig Mosquitos for that price
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mrgoodwrench76
New member
Buy a replacement slide, destroy the old one, and kick that girls behind. I also dont believe the aforementiond law pertains to this case as the serial number is clearly still in tact on the frame.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
By the way, I did some more reading on this trying to find an example where the serial number was ruled as "not altered" because there was a second unaltered serial number somewhere else on the firearm and could not find one.
I did, however, find this case: U. S. vs. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (1st Cir. 2002).
In this case the owner tried to scratch out the serial number with a screwdriver. He gave up before completing the job so that it was still possible to read all six numbers with the naked eye, though with some difficulty. He was convicted of possessing a firearm with an altered serial number and the First Circuit upheld the conviction.
I did, however, find this case: U. S. vs. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (1st Cir. 2002).
In this case the owner tried to scratch out the serial number with a screwdriver. He gave up before completing the job so that it was still possible to read all six numbers with the naked eye, though with some difficulty. He was convicted of possessing a firearm with an altered serial number and the First Circuit upheld the conviction.
I think the assumption here is everything is an "illegal" act. Which isnt always the case, although here, it would probably be construed as such if it were reported.
What of the instances where the serial number is simply restamped or removed to be placed elsewhere on the gun, due to refinishing or modification? In those cases, its still perfectly legal to restamp the number, as long as the number is the same number, is done in a proper fashion, and the removal isnt done for the purpose of obscuring or altering the number.
What of the instances where the serial number is simply restamped or removed to be placed elsewhere on the gun, due to refinishing or modification? In those cases, its still perfectly legal to restamp the number, as long as the number is the same number, is done in a proper fashion, and the removal isnt done for the purpose of obscuring or altering the number.
The serial numberon the slide is not ikelt to be THE seraial number for the gun.
While a few guns have them NOT on the grip frame (Ruger Mark II for example) most of the time THE serial number is on the grip frame.
Any other place is just to keep parts together during manufacture, and the other numbers are NOT required.
It is THE serial number that cannot be altered, not ANY serial number.
While a few guns have them NOT on the grip frame (Ruger Mark II for example) most of the time THE serial number is on the grip frame.
Any other place is just to keep parts together during manufacture, and the other numbers are NOT required.
It is THE serial number that cannot be altered, not ANY serial number.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I think the problem here is that a reasonable interpretation of 922(k) is that the OP's firearm may not be shipped, transported or possessed. There may be other reasonable interpretations; but looking at 922(k), you can't say that this interpretation is clearly out of whack. As the Adams court noted, there is no legislative history available for 922(k) - so judges have considerable leeway in interpreting it.
My experience has been that if lawyers can't agree on the answer, the default setting for the law enforcement officer dealing with it will be to arrest the possible criminal and let the justice system handle it. At this point, whoever still possesses the Sig Mosquito has lost more money than the gun is worth; but now he can't get off the train.
The next step is the prosecutor. If he is unable to find law directly addressing the subject, the law he does find has some disturbing lines in it for the defendant. First, it says that even if the serial number is still visible to the naked eye, the person can be convicted for altering the serial number. If the argument is that the serial number altered wasn't the same one mandated by 923(i), I think that is also a reasonable argument; but I bet you can buy a lot of Sig Mosquitos for what it costs to make it.
The First Circuit in Adams raises the issue of "What if it is an accidental mark that scratches or alters the serial number?" They suggest that this would probably not fall under 922(k); but they also suggest that it is a question of fact for the jury to decide and that if the jury doesn't buy that explanation, then the conviction can still stand.
All in all, I don't see the upside of keeping the Sig Mosquito described. Having the serial number restamped and the original handywork covered up to the point it doesn't attract LE attention would probably cost as least as much as the pistol. Same thing with having a lawyer work out the details with ATF. The most cost effective solution would probably be just to junk it or replace the slide.
My experience has been that if lawyers can't agree on the answer, the default setting for the law enforcement officer dealing with it will be to arrest the possible criminal and let the justice system handle it. At this point, whoever still possesses the Sig Mosquito has lost more money than the gun is worth; but now he can't get off the train.
The next step is the prosecutor. If he is unable to find law directly addressing the subject, the law he does find has some disturbing lines in it for the defendant. First, it says that even if the serial number is still visible to the naked eye, the person can be convicted for altering the serial number. If the argument is that the serial number altered wasn't the same one mandated by 923(i), I think that is also a reasonable argument; but I bet you can buy a lot of Sig Mosquitos for what it costs to make it.
The First Circuit in Adams raises the issue of "What if it is an accidental mark that scratches or alters the serial number?" They suggest that this would probably not fall under 922(k); but they also suggest that it is a question of fact for the jury to decide and that if the jury doesn't buy that explanation, then the conviction can still stand.
All in all, I don't see the upside of keeping the Sig Mosquito described. Having the serial number restamped and the original handywork covered up to the point it doesn't attract LE attention would probably cost as least as much as the pistol. Same thing with having a lawyer work out the details with ATF. The most cost effective solution would probably be just to junk it or replace the slide.
mrgoodwrench76
New member
Again, couldn't you just replace the slide and avoid any further legal problems? Surely that is a more economical solution than replacing the entire firearm. My opinion of the Sig Mosquito is quite low, but even it deserves a long life.
Mosquito MSRP: $390.00
http://sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=30&productid=98 See "specifications" tab.
I checked the sigsauer.com website; Brownells.com; MidwayUSA.com; and topgunsupply.com. None of them had Mosquito slides. Doesn't mean they aren't out there, just means I couldn't find them.
Note, MSRP on .22LR conversion kits for the P220 and P229 is around $350, so if SIG-Sauer does have Mosquito slides, my guess is they won't cost much less than a replacement Mosquito.
Probably best bet is to call SIG customer service.
Note: Whether you change the slide or ditch the gun is not something I have an opinion about. I don't know if there are any legal ramifications of altering the number on the slide, and am not offering any opinion on that.
http://sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=30&productid=98 See "specifications" tab.
I checked the sigsauer.com website; Brownells.com; MidwayUSA.com; and topgunsupply.com. None of them had Mosquito slides. Doesn't mean they aren't out there, just means I couldn't find them.
Note, MSRP on .22LR conversion kits for the P220 and P229 is around $350, so if SIG-Sauer does have Mosquito slides, my guess is they won't cost much less than a replacement Mosquito.
Probably best bet is to call SIG customer service.
Note: Whether you change the slide or ditch the gun is not something I have an opinion about. I don't know if there are any legal ramifications of altering the number on the slide, and am not offering any opinion on that.
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I have to ask, in my lack of understanding, if it is illegal to deface in ANY way a serial number, how come many of my milsurps have had lines stamped thru the original numbers on the receiver, with new serial numbers electro-penciled onto them from the importer/seller?
sixgun
As for the Sig in the OP, I believe I'd try and find another slide, or just strip it for parts and destroy/dispose of the receiver. Many milsurps don't have matching numbers, and the numbers of record are from the receiver. It looks to me like it is from this point on, a money pit, that will cost a fortune to clear up or cost a fortune along with jail time. Not a good set of options, either way.
sixgun
As for the Sig in the OP, I believe I'd try and find another slide, or just strip it for parts and destroy/dispose of the receiver. Many milsurps don't have matching numbers, and the numbers of record are from the receiver. It looks to me like it is from this point on, a money pit, that will cost a fortune to clear up or cost a fortune along with jail time. Not a good set of options, either way.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
My guess is that the importer made those marks in accordance with 923(i) that gc70 quoted above. The importer is required to stamp a serial number by law and is required to do so in the manner prescribed by the Attorney General.
) My curiosity never ends, it seems....
I don't think it's so simple. While the slide on it's own is just an inert object, when it's on the gun, it's part of the gun. From the legal federal definition of a firearm:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
So although the frame, or lower receiver, is legally a firearm, the whole assembly, including the slide, also constitutes a firearm.
I'm not a lawyer, but an interpretation of that definition could be that you could buy a slide and file the number off to your heart's content, no problem. But put that slide on a matching frame (my matching I mean a frame that fits so that together they constitute a working gun), and then the serial number becomes untouchable.
I agree only the sn on the slide should matter (for instance, what is the slide has a different number?) but I would not be surprised to see the government prosecute a case like this, and I would not be surprised to see someone going to jail for it. Personally, I would get rid of the altered component - better safe than sorry.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
brickeyee said:
Could you point me towards the case law or statute that clarifies that? Because during my time reading all of those cases concerning altering a firearm's serial number, I didn't come across one case that even asked where the altered serial number was located.
As long as the lower receiver with the serial number is present you have a firearm.
Without THAT PART you have NOTHING.
The other parts are NOT CONTROLLED and are NOT a firearm (thus they can be purchased and shipped as PARTS and NOT a firearm).
The only number that would matter for a prosecution is the REQUIRED number.
How is a case that was NOT prosecuted since it did not involve the legally required number to be found?
Think about it.