I am helping a family friend to try and properly identify and value three handguns she inherited from her father. The first is a S&W Ladysmith. The second is a Webley and the third has no markings but I believe it was made by Colt. The Webley and Colt appear to have been manufactured around 1917. The S&W is probably also from that time period. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Help to identify 3 old handguns
- Thread starter Jesse9
- Start date
I can't speak for the value of them.
That Webley is really neat though, always found old top break revolvers to be interesting. It looks to be in the best condition of the 3.
What caliber is that Lady Smith?
If that 1911 was a Colt from around 1917 it has been butchered beyond recognition. There are many parts on it that are not original and this will affect it's value in a very negative way. No markings on it at all? Colt marked their 1911's very clearly from the start, yours lacks all the markings one would expect to find on a colt of any age. We have one older than that by about 5 years. It probably isn't worth much or worth the cost it will take to restore it.
The only reason I can think of for it not having any markings was her dad or other previous owner defaced the identification markings on it when they liberated their "Property of US Government" 1911 by bringing it home in the bottom of their duffel bag after returning from war.
That Webley is really neat though, always found old top break revolvers to be interesting. It looks to be in the best condition of the 3.
What caliber is that Lady Smith?
If that 1911 was a Colt from around 1917 it has been butchered beyond recognition. There are many parts on it that are not original and this will affect it's value in a very negative way. No markings on it at all? Colt marked their 1911's very clearly from the start, yours lacks all the markings one would expect to find on a colt of any age. We have one older than that by about 5 years. It probably isn't worth much or worth the cost it will take to restore it.
The only reason I can think of for it not having any markings was her dad or other previous owner defaced the identification markings on it when they liberated their "Property of US Government" 1911 by bringing it home in the bottom of their duffel bag after returning from war.
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It would make me cry to find out that your 1911 frame was, in fact, made by North American Arms. North American frames were not numbered or marked externally. Serial numbers are either on top of the frame behind the mag well or under the grips. Sadly, whatever it is, it's only value is as a shooter
The Webley & Scott Mk VI looks to have been "shaved" to allow the use of .45 ACP with half moon clips and, as such, is not safe to fire full power .45 ACP loads due to the pressure differences between .455 Webley and .45 ACP.
The Lady Smith is a third variation, made between 1911 and 1921, and the most numerous of the three variations. It is chambered for .22 long (NOT .22 long rifle).
The Webley & Scott Mk VI looks to have been "shaved" to allow the use of .45 ACP with half moon clips and, as such, is not safe to fire full power .45 ACP loads due to the pressure differences between .455 Webley and .45 ACP.
The Lady Smith is a third variation, made between 1911 and 1921, and the most numerous of the three variations. It is chambered for .22 long (NOT .22 long rifle).
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That is the Third Model Ladysmith, aka the Model M Hand Ejector, Third Model. They made 12,203 of them, numbers 13951-26154, all in .22 Long. In average good condition, they will bring over $1200, twice that or more for a really nice one.
Definitely NOT to be fired with .22 LR, even standard velocity.
The Webley is a Mk VI; I can't be certain, but the cylinder appears to have been "shaved" to accept .45 ACP in half moon clips. I STRONGLY advise not firing full power .45 ACP or GI loads; they run almost twice the pressure for which the gun was designed.
The 1911-type pistol has been buffed and polished to the point that all the markings have been removed. It has no collector value, and since the serial number appears to have been removed, it is illegal to own in the U.S.
Jim
Definitely NOT to be fired with .22 LR, even standard velocity.
The Webley is a Mk VI; I can't be certain, but the cylinder appears to have been "shaved" to accept .45 ACP in half moon clips. I STRONGLY advise not firing full power .45 ACP or GI loads; they run almost twice the pressure for which the gun was designed.
The 1911-type pistol has been buffed and polished to the point that all the markings have been removed. It has no collector value, and since the serial number appears to have been removed, it is illegal to own in the U.S.
Jim
OP needs to field strip the 1911 and remove grips to see if there is a hidden 1 or 2 digit serial number. Not likely, but...you never know.
Also, in the Webley photo, as best as I can make out, the proofing date is 1916, which would indicate manufacture in 1916, also evidenced by the serial number in the 100,000 range.
Also, in the Webley photo, as best as I can make out, the proofing date is 1916, which would indicate manufacture in 1916, also evidenced by the serial number in the 100,000 range.
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I would be taking that 1911 apart and looking everywhere on the frame for a serial number. If it was filed off from what I understand it is a felony to possess such a thing. If the gun was produced prior to 1968, and left the factory without a serial number it is probably ok but the only ways I can think of to prove this is to have it x-rayed or plung the frame into a vat of acid until enough is eaten away to expose any numbers that were once there.
The risk and cost of what it would take to restore it to something that wasn't at best questionably legal would be high. At best the BATF doesn't arrest your friend and charge them with a felony that makes them having any guns illegal.
The safest option for your friend if there is any doubt it was not made the way it is would be to destroy the frame and buy another with a legal serial number if it has much sentimental value.
The risk and cost of what it would take to restore it to something that wasn't at best questionably legal would be high. At best the BATF doesn't arrest your friend and charge them with a felony that makes them having any guns illegal.
The safest option for your friend if there is any doubt it was not made the way it is would be to destroy the frame and buy another with a legal serial number if it has much sentimental value.
carguychris
New member
Yes. Fortunately, this does not destroy the collectible value of the gun like almost any other refinish would. It's not as valuable as true original finish, but it should be close.gyvel said:
James' warning cannot be overemphasized. These guns are capable of accepting .22LR, but firing it will crack the forcing cone (the transitional part at the rear of the barrel) at the 6 o'clock position in very short order. In fact, many Ladysmiths have forcing cones that are already split.James K said:
Jesse9, if you're contemplating firing this gun...
- I don't think it's a good idea.
- Inspect the forcing cone carefully beforehand; if it is cracked, DO NOT FIRE IT.
- From what I've seen on the S&W forum, the few collectors who are willing to occasionally fire their Ladysmiths don't even use standard .22 Long; they typically use CB caps, Aguila Colibris, or other low-powder or primer-only loads, to protect the forcing cone from damage.
- The double-action trigger mechanism of the Ladysmith is notoriously weak. (This, plus the forcing cone cracking problem and high production costs, are the reasons the gun was discontinued.) The DA trigger should be used as seldom as possible- preferably not at all, or only as required to demonstrate that it's functional. If you choose to fire the revolver, most enthusiasts recommend doing it exclusively in single-action.
- I STILL don't think it's a good idea.
FWIW if you're thinking of selling it, a cracked forcing cone and a non-functional DA trigger are not necessarily the Kiss of Death from a collectible value standpoint. It WILL hurt the value, but it won't reduce it to near-nothing, as with more commonplace and less sought-after old revolvers.
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Thank you everyone for the wealth of information especially regarding the warnings on attempting to fire these handguns. The owner will not be to happy to hear about the 1911 being illegal to own without the serial number but I'll make every attempt to locate it. I have two more questions to throw out there. 1. Any idea on the value of the Webley? 2. If the owner does want to part with the handguns, could I get some recommendations on where to go or who to use on-line? The owner lives in the San Francisco Bay Area. Thanks.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I would recommend NOT shooting the Lady Smith at all.
These revolvers were originally developed for black powder or semi-smokeless (a mix of black and smokeless) powders, which had a significantly different pressure curve.
Even though modern .22 Long ammo is generally loaded to the same pressure and velocity specifications as black or semi-smokeless powder rounds, the guns simply aren't able to handle modern propellants.
As previously noted, many Lady Smiths have cracked forcing cones, and modern powders, even in the correct chambering, can caus significant issues.
These revolvers were originally developed for black powder or semi-smokeless (a mix of black and smokeless) powders, which had a significantly different pressure curve.
Even though modern .22 Long ammo is generally loaded to the same pressure and velocity specifications as black or semi-smokeless powder rounds, the guns simply aren't able to handle modern propellants.
As previously noted, many Lady Smiths have cracked forcing cones, and modern powders, even in the correct chambering, can caus significant issues.
Good point, Mike, and I should have said that. The cylinders are none too strong either, and I have seen one cracked from firing .22 LR HV.
Those who have seen those guns only in pictures might not realize how small they are. The cylinder is about the size of a quarter, but holds 7 rounds, and the whole gun is tiny. The gun with a 3 1/2" barrel weighs only 9 1/2 ounces.
Some, incredibly, were made with 6" barrels and target sights; I have never actually seen one of those.
Jim
Those who have seen those guns only in pictures might not realize how small they are. The cylinder is about the size of a quarter, but holds 7 rounds, and the whole gun is tiny. The gun with a 3 1/2" barrel weighs only 9 1/2 ounces.
Some, incredibly, were made with 6" barrels and target sights; I have never actually seen one of those.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
I saw one target sighted Lady Smith, in almost new condition, in a beautiful box.
It was, of course, in a private collection.
I've heard that similar ones have sold for better than five figures.
It was, of course, in a private collection.
I've heard that similar ones have sold for better than five figures.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hey, found a picture of a 3rd Model Target...
http://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Amoskeag/36/301436/H1193-L21168782.jpg
It's from an auction site, but it doesn't say how much the gun sold for.
http://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Amoskeag/36/301436/H1193-L21168782.jpg
It's from an auction site, but it doesn't say how much the gun sold for.
carguychris
New member
After some careful added thought, I've reworded my earlier post. Y'all take note. 
Lets be clear, the 1911 is only illegal if it had a serial number, and that number has been removed. It could be the mythical "lunch box" pistol, made up before 1968, and if so, would be legal under the law as far as serial number is concerned.
It could have been made up on a homemade frame (again, before 68) un-numbered, and be legal as well.
Good luck on proving either one of those two...
IT looks heavily buffed, so its possible some ham handed refinisher polished off the visible markings. IF you can't find a number on the frame in some location, then the safest thing to do is contact a lawyer, and have them negotiate the surrender of the gun to the authorities. If that is the course you wind up having to take, I'd recommend stripping the gun to the frame, and surrendering that (which is legally the gun), getting a new legal replacement frame and putting the parts back together on it. That way, you still have a 1911. The way the law on this works, it assumes that if you have a gun with a defaced/removed serial #, that you are the one who did it. Buying it like that or inheriting it like that is not a defense. Generally you are allowed to surrender the illegal item, without prosecution, but you have to arrange for that, before you get caught with it. Otherwise, the hammer will come down on you. The money a lawyer will cost to cya is dirt cheap compared to the possible consequences. If you can't find a number on the frame anywhere, get a lawyer ASAP.
The Webley is clearly marked Mark VI, and appears to have been altered from the original .455 chambering. Note how the bottom of the numbers on the cylinder have been shaved off. This indicates the gun has been modified to take .45ACP brass in half moon clips. .45ACP AMMO is not to be fired in this gun! Even GI ball ammo is at proof pressure load for the Webley, and so should not be used. And NEVER anything hotter!
The Webley, as it now exists is made to run on handloads, using .45ACP cases loaded to Webley appropriate pressures. I have one, mfg 1917. Its a neat gun. .45 AR (auto rim) brass may work, or it may not. Some guns were shaved a bit more than others. Also note that some of the "least" shaved guns may still fire .455 ammo, others will not.
Can't help with the Smith, not my area, but others have covered it pretty well.
Good luck!
It could have been made up on a homemade frame (again, before 68) un-numbered, and be legal as well.
Good luck on proving either one of those two...
IT looks heavily buffed, so its possible some ham handed refinisher polished off the visible markings. IF you can't find a number on the frame in some location, then the safest thing to do is contact a lawyer, and have them negotiate the surrender of the gun to the authorities. If that is the course you wind up having to take, I'd recommend stripping the gun to the frame, and surrendering that (which is legally the gun), getting a new legal replacement frame and putting the parts back together on it. That way, you still have a 1911. The way the law on this works, it assumes that if you have a gun with a defaced/removed serial #, that you are the one who did it. Buying it like that or inheriting it like that is not a defense. Generally you are allowed to surrender the illegal item, without prosecution, but you have to arrange for that, before you get caught with it. Otherwise, the hammer will come down on you. The money a lawyer will cost to cya is dirt cheap compared to the possible consequences. If you can't find a number on the frame anywhere, get a lawyer ASAP.
The Webley is clearly marked Mark VI, and appears to have been altered from the original .455 chambering. Note how the bottom of the numbers on the cylinder have been shaved off. This indicates the gun has been modified to take .45ACP brass in half moon clips. .45ACP AMMO is not to be fired in this gun! Even GI ball ammo is at proof pressure load for the Webley, and so should not be used. And NEVER anything hotter!
The Webley, as it now exists is made to run on handloads, using .45ACP cases loaded to Webley appropriate pressures. I have one, mfg 1917. Its a neat gun. .45 AR (auto rim) brass may work, or it may not. Some guns were shaved a bit more than others. Also note that some of the "least" shaved guns may still fire .455 ammo, others will not.
Can't help with the Smith, not my area, but others have covered it pretty well.
Good luck!
Although I repeat myself, it could also be the elusive North American Arms 1911 (frame only) which had no external serial numbers. Goddard states that North American made about 104 pistols or so, making it much rarer than the Singer of WWII.
Regarding serial numbers, Goddard states that #s "111," "222," "333" and "444" (apparently the first four guns) were stamped on the receiver bridge behind the mag well, with the remaining 100 stamped under the left grip. The frames had no other markings, including inspectors' marks
And 44AMP is correct; It's only a "crime" if the gun had a serial number to begin with.
Jim Watson
New member
Do not shoot the Ladysmith, you will break it.
Do not shoot the Webley with standard .45 ACP, you might break it. It will shoot just fine with low end loads in ACP or AR brass. I would try the hollowbase lead bullet made by Remington for .45 Colt, it might set up to the Webley's chamber throats and barrel.
The 1911 is an interesting case. It has nearly every visible modification performed by the old King Gun Sight Co. on the type. I bet it has the internal work too; everything but the wide trigger, here a plain trigger shoe instead. Yes, the peculiar looking mainspring housing was shaped that way on purpose to fit the owner's hand. Notice it is contoured for his right hand.
There is a good $25 worth of work on a gun then selling for $45 new; which this one was not at the time they were doing that type of modification. The catalog I have does not list frontstrap checkering, I suspect it done elsewhere; King would have done a nicer job on that and the blue, too.
Comparable to about $1000 gunsmithing on an $800 gun at current prices.
Unfortunately all markings have been removed, which makes it "contraband" in the eyes of the BATFE.
If you threw yourself on the mercy of the Feds, they might recognize it as a custom piece and issue you a new serial number for it. Maybe the NRA or one of the full auto associations can recommend a firearms knowledgeable lawyer.
Sorry gyvel, I think I have seen more internet reports of scrubbed 1911s in the past year than the total production of NAACOs.
No reason not to take off the left grip and look, though.
Do not shoot the Webley with standard .45 ACP, you might break it. It will shoot just fine with low end loads in ACP or AR brass. I would try the hollowbase lead bullet made by Remington for .45 Colt, it might set up to the Webley's chamber throats and barrel.
The 1911 is an interesting case. It has nearly every visible modification performed by the old King Gun Sight Co. on the type. I bet it has the internal work too; everything but the wide trigger, here a plain trigger shoe instead. Yes, the peculiar looking mainspring housing was shaped that way on purpose to fit the owner's hand. Notice it is contoured for his right hand.
There is a good $25 worth of work on a gun then selling for $45 new; which this one was not at the time they were doing that type of modification. The catalog I have does not list frontstrap checkering, I suspect it done elsewhere; King would have done a nicer job on that and the blue, too.
Comparable to about $1000 gunsmithing on an $800 gun at current prices.
Unfortunately all markings have been removed, which makes it "contraband" in the eyes of the BATFE.
If you threw yourself on the mercy of the Feds, they might recognize it as a custom piece and issue you a new serial number for it. Maybe the NRA or one of the full auto associations can recommend a firearms knowledgeable lawyer.
Sorry gyvel, I think I have seen more internet reports of scrubbed 1911s in the past year than the total production of NAACOs.
No reason not to take off the left grip and look, though.