Swifty Morgan
New member
I think my problems are solved. Either it will work with 6.2 grains, or it will work with 6.1. No idea why the velocities are so high in this particular gun, but I guess I don't need to know.
Help me Work up .45 ACP Load
- Thread starter Swifty Morgan
- Start date
Jim Watson
New member
I think you just have the proverbial "fast barrel," and Pearce's is about average.
I don't know of anybody figuring out the exact dimensions that make up a "fast barrel", that's just the way it is.
I don't know of anybody figuring out the exact dimensions that make up a "fast barrel", that's just the way it is.
Swifty Morgan
New member
Ran 6 more shots through the chronograph at 6.1 grains. The results look fine. I'm close to 900 from the safer side. The chronograph dropped one shot.
I used old range brass. I don't know if this has any effect on the spread and standard deviation. I'll be using new Starline for the rest.
45 ACP XTP 230 6.1 Unique Digital Link
Test rounds for defensive purposes. Goal 875 fps.
Temperature: 89° F
Pressure: 30 in Hg
Bullet Weight: 230.0
Power Factor Average: 206
Power Factor Low: 203
Power Factor High: 209
Number of Shots: 5
Minimum: 884
Maximum: 911
Spread: 27
Average: 895
Standard Deviation: 10
Custom Attributes
OAL 1.205
Brass Starline new
Powder Unique 6.1
Primer WLP
Bullet Hornady XTP
# Velocity Ft/lbs Power Factor Date
5 900 413.64 207 5/24/20 3:33 PM
4 899 412.72 206 5/24/20 3:33 PM
3 885 399.96 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
2 911 423.81 209 5/24/20 3:33 PM
1 884 399.06 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
I used old range brass. I don't know if this has any effect on the spread and standard deviation. I'll be using new Starline for the rest.
45 ACP XTP 230 6.1 Unique Digital Link
Test rounds for defensive purposes. Goal 875 fps.
Temperature: 89° F
Pressure: 30 in Hg
Bullet Weight: 230.0
Power Factor Average: 206
Power Factor Low: 203
Power Factor High: 209
Number of Shots: 5
Minimum: 884
Maximum: 911
Spread: 27
Average: 895
Standard Deviation: 10
Custom Attributes
OAL 1.205
Brass Starline new
Powder Unique 6.1
Primer WLP
Bullet Hornady XTP
# Velocity Ft/lbs Power Factor Date
5 900 413.64 207 5/24/20 3:33 PM
4 899 412.72 206 5/24/20 3:33 PM
3 885 399.96 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
2 911 423.81 209 5/24/20 3:33 PM
1 884 399.06 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
mikejonestkd
New member
One probable reason for your velocity is that you are seating them shorter than recommended.
I guess you missed my earlier post so I am retyping it:
I took a look at the Hornady 10th edition. Page 944
The XTP COAL is 1.230"
I guess you missed my earlier post so I am retyping it:
I took a look at the Hornady 10th edition. Page 944
The XTP COAL is 1.230"
Swifty Morgan
New member
Actually, you missed a couple of my posts. I'm using a recipe from a different source.
mikejonestkd
New member
In post 26 you mention your COAL, but I do not see any other references after that.
What is your COAL with the load listed above?
What is your COAL with the load listed above?
Swifty Morgan
New member
It's in posts 26, 29, and 43: 1.205".
mikejonestkd
New member
Thank you, your COAL contributes to your velocity, and increases pressure over the book length of 1.230"
Did you miss the part where I said it was the max COL?
Its not just for 230gr RN ball ammo, its for EVERY BULLET you load in the .45acp. Its NOT a length you must load to, its a length you must load UNDER. Shorter bullets will have shorter COLs, well below listed max.
Provided your powder charge is worked up properly for the specific bullet and seating depth you are using for that bullet, anything under 1.275" is a valid length, provided it feeds in your gun.
Swifty Morgan
New member
For what it's worth, I'm seeing people on the web reporting serious velocity increases when moving to Winchester Large Pistol primers. One guy claimed +67 fps in a Ruger Blackhawk.
Stats Shooter
New member
Winchester large pistol primers are basically a magnum primer. I use them in 45 acp and 10 mm. You will note Winchester does not have a magnum large pistol primer for that reason. They are not known to be as "hot" as labled magnum primers like cci or federal, but hotter than a standard primer. This is well known and documented on this forum.
An actual FPS increase will be powder, bullet, and gun dependent, but when you look at published load data, noting the primer used can be important.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why everyone with any experience says start low and work up your powder charges noting velocity and pressure signs. There is no such thing as "free velocity " Assuming you are using the same powder listed, same bullet, seating depth, etc, more velocity is achieved by either a longer barrel, or more pressure. ( There are ways with more volume due to longer seating depths but not generally with automatic pistols)
When i was new to reloading, i found out the hard way that lake city .308 brass had less volume than commercial. 308. I started about 3/4 the way up the powder scale and had stuck cases and pierced primers. Had i started low and worked up, would never have come to that.
An actual FPS increase will be powder, bullet, and gun dependent, but when you look at published load data, noting the primer used can be important.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why everyone with any experience says start low and work up your powder charges noting velocity and pressure signs. There is no such thing as "free velocity " Assuming you are using the same powder listed, same bullet, seating depth, etc, more velocity is achieved by either a longer barrel, or more pressure. ( There are ways with more volume due to longer seating depths but not generally with automatic pistols)
When i was new to reloading, i found out the hard way that lake city .308 brass had less volume than commercial. 308. I started about 3/4 the way up the powder scale and had stuck cases and pierced primers. Had i started low and worked up, would never have come to that.
Swifty Morgan
New member
It's all going in my log for future use.
The other weird thing is the uncanny consistency I got with new Starline brass, compared to the big spread with range discards.
The other weird thing is the uncanny consistency I got with new Starline brass, compared to the big spread with range discards.
Sometimes, there is such a thing as "free velocity". Some guns are just "faster" than others. It's not something easily quantified, may not be possible to do it, but sometimes, using exactly the same ammunition, different barrels produce different speeds, and sometimes the difference is enough to be significant.
Why is it weird?? I'd think it was normal. New brass with as much consistency as you're going to get, short of paying to match grade stuff, vs range pick up which can be a mix of any and nearly everything.
Swifty Morgan
New member
It's uncanny because the velocity spread was extremely tiny and because pistol reloaders confidently say the brass makes no difference. Looks like that's wrong. I guess people who can't shoot say that. If you're shooting 6" groups at 7 yards, I suppose all ammunition seems equally accurate.
I'm surprised to find out so many things that ought to be common knowledge are not commonly known. For example, if Winchester primers are really faster, everyone should know it by now. It's 2020. People shouldn't still be wondering about it. If you Google, you'll find all sorts of people who say all primers are the same.
I'm surprised to find out so many things that ought to be common knowledge are not commonly known. For example, if Winchester primers are really faster, everyone should know it by now. It's 2020. People shouldn't still be wondering about it. If you Google, you'll find all sorts of people who say all primers are the same.
All primers are not the same, but any appropriate primer should work. If you switch primer brands, you might have to adjust your powder slightly to get back to the same load.
I use range pick-up brass, but I sort it by headstamp; seems to make a difference but part of that might be my imagination.
I use range pick-up brass, but I sort it by headstamp; seems to make a difference but part of that might be my imagination.
Swifty Morgan
New member
I was looking forward to economizing on .45 brass, but if the velocity consistency translates in to accuracy, I will have to get used to buying Starline. I have a hard time willingly giving up accuracy.
Stats Shooter
New member
Swiftly, You can find headstamp sorted once fired brass. 44 AMP is right about standards, but its also a question of : Is the juice worth the squeeze? For my F-Open mid range and long range ammo, i go through so many prep and QC checks that it would take too long to list here.
For IDPA, a 1/2 MOA improvement due to ammo quality is nt worth the time or money. I use mixed HS brasd, berrys bullets, and worry about trigger time more than time at the reloading bench. But, a bullseye shooter might stand to benefit from an accuracy gain.
Same in my .223's, if you are shooting steels on the move, that is different than 300 and 500 yard steel ram shooting.
For IDPA, a 1/2 MOA improvement due to ammo quality is nt worth the time or money. I use mixed HS brasd, berrys bullets, and worry about trigger time more than time at the reloading bench. But, a bullseye shooter might stand to benefit from an accuracy gain.
Same in my .223's, if you are shooting steels on the move, that is different than 300 and 500 yard steel ram shooting.
Swifty,for a guy who is asking for help,you seem to argue a lot.
All of this applies at the same time. You don't pick a few and leave some out.
The way you "work up" a 45 ACP load is you pick one that has already been "worked up" by those in the business who have more resources.
Bullets are manufactured to different lengths. Some 230 gr bullets are longer than others. The gun,such as a 1911,will have a maximum length the mechanics of the gun will accept. You can't use ammo that won't fit in the magazine. OK,fine. But that number has nothing to do with pressure or velocity.
For pressure,its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume. That will vary,bullet to bullet.
Thats why its good to look at Hornady data for that particular bullet.
It fine to look at Hogdon or Alliant data,but its only valid if its specified for that particular bullet.. You can get general ideas about 230 gr bullets,bt not down to the last .2 gr of powder you can get away with.
Yes,primers matter. Thats why loading manuals tell you which primer they are using.
The loading manuals will also tell you to not substitute components.
So yes,substituting a primer can boost pressure.
Despite testimony that some barrels are "faster" than others,that may well say that some barrels generate more pressure than others.
What makes more velocity butmore pressure,with the same bullet?
IMO,your chrono telling you that you have reached the published velocity figure is a far more reliable indication you have reached a given pressure than any voodoo reading of pressure signs.
If you use the published load specified primer,specified bullet,seated to specified length,with the specified powder in specified charge weights,in the specified brass,
You have no need to "work up" a load. Just select one,and work up tp spec'd max. Achieving spec'd max velocity is an indicator you have achieved max for your gun.
Mixd brass? Another brand of 230 gr bullet? an alternative primer?
No probem! If you read your manual,you will see it says "back off 10%"
Do that,and sneak back up to the published velocity. Or maybe a little less.
Its best to have a margin of safety to cover variables.
One of which,is your powder scales. Do you have a set of test weights? Have you calibrated your scale?
How much sense does it make to talk about backing off 0.2 of a grain from "too hot" if you don't test weight your scales?
This thread has chased around the chaos of picking and choosing the variables. You combine the variables you have overlooked ( deep seating depth,hot primer,and maybe a non calibrated scale.....
Its nuts to even discuss if you want to argue through it.
With a "correct" load,your gun will run happy. The brass won't be flung thirty feet. Your velocity will be appropriate.
If those don't happen,then hunt down "Why?" Seating too deep is a "Why" Substituting a hotter primer is a "Why"
Mixed brass? No problem! But lower your velocity expectations and back off a bit.
A box stock 1911 will run and shoot accurately with less than max loads. Thats where you can load your "mix and match" components. On the mild side.
If you want peak velocities,you have to eliminate variables. Attention to details.
What may be contrary to your beliefs,800 fps instead of 900 fps will have no effect on your testosterone levels.
All of this applies at the same time. You don't pick a few and leave some out.
The way you "work up" a 45 ACP load is you pick one that has already been "worked up" by those in the business who have more resources.
Bullets are manufactured to different lengths. Some 230 gr bullets are longer than others. The gun,such as a 1911,will have a maximum length the mechanics of the gun will accept. You can't use ammo that won't fit in the magazine. OK,fine. But that number has nothing to do with pressure or velocity.
For pressure,its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume. That will vary,bullet to bullet.
Thats why its good to look at Hornady data for that particular bullet.
It fine to look at Hogdon or Alliant data,but its only valid if its specified for that particular bullet.. You can get general ideas about 230 gr bullets,bt not down to the last .2 gr of powder you can get away with.
Yes,primers matter. Thats why loading manuals tell you which primer they are using.
The loading manuals will also tell you to not substitute components.
So yes,substituting a primer can boost pressure.
Despite testimony that some barrels are "faster" than others,that may well say that some barrels generate more pressure than others.
What makes more velocity butmore pressure,with the same bullet?
IMO,your chrono telling you that you have reached the published velocity figure is a far more reliable indication you have reached a given pressure than any voodoo reading of pressure signs.
If you use the published load specified primer,specified bullet,seated to specified length,with the specified powder in specified charge weights,in the specified brass,
You have no need to "work up" a load. Just select one,and work up tp spec'd max. Achieving spec'd max velocity is an indicator you have achieved max for your gun.
Mixd brass? Another brand of 230 gr bullet? an alternative primer?
No probem! If you read your manual,you will see it says "back off 10%"
Do that,and sneak back up to the published velocity. Or maybe a little less.
Its best to have a margin of safety to cover variables.
One of which,is your powder scales. Do you have a set of test weights? Have you calibrated your scale?
How much sense does it make to talk about backing off 0.2 of a grain from "too hot" if you don't test weight your scales?
This thread has chased around the chaos of picking and choosing the variables. You combine the variables you have overlooked ( deep seating depth,hot primer,and maybe a non calibrated scale.....
Its nuts to even discuss if you want to argue through it.
With a "correct" load,your gun will run happy. The brass won't be flung thirty feet. Your velocity will be appropriate.
If those don't happen,then hunt down "Why?" Seating too deep is a "Why" Substituting a hotter primer is a "Why"
Mixed brass? No problem! But lower your velocity expectations and back off a bit.
A box stock 1911 will run and shoot accurately with less than max loads. Thats where you can load your "mix and match" components. On the mild side.
If you want peak velocities,you have to eliminate variables. Attention to details.
What may be contrary to your beliefs,800 fps instead of 900 fps will have no effect on your testosterone levels.
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