There is only one place where you can find out what guns run, and it's not magazines or chat boards or manuals. The place to look is competitive forums, USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, and the Steel Challenge. Go to your nearest match, and see who shoots what. The competitors will be glad to tell you the virtues, and limitations, of their choices. One thing is for sure, guns that don't run aren't there, period. You may not need a gun that runs for 100,000 plus rounds, but you do need a reliable gun with good sights and a manageble trigger. What's mostly represented? High quality 1911 variants such as STI, SVI, Para, Kimber, Colt and lots and lots of Glocks, a few Berettas, the odd Sig and H&K, and S&W wheelguns.
Help me find "real" information
- Thread starter September11
- Start date
This is the best source of info you'll find pertaining to firearms. Real people, real experience. One thing I would like to add. Don't choose a handgun for superficial reasons, like looks or because the consensus says one or the other. Keep trying different ones till you find the one that best suits you and your shooting style. The one you choose could very well save your life, or the life of someone you love, or a close facsimile thereof. You can get good info from TFL, but the ultimate choice is yours. Find the one for you, then, get proficient with it. Good luck.....Now if I can practice what I preach I'll be alright.
September11
New member
Mo_Zam_Beek - I have been to Place to Shoot and bought a 1 year membership but haven't been to the other place you mentioned... I will look them up and go there this weekend!
Thanks
9X45 Those are places I have found but not looked at for this type of information. I thought they were primarily information regarding the association and events. I did not realize they have a forum too. Thanks
CSAY Save my life is what I am trying to do...
I am taking the information gathering process seriously. That is why I was so dissapointed to see no real information from these magazines and books. thanks
Thanks
9X45 Those are places I have found but not looked at for this type of information. I thought they were primarily information regarding the association and events. I did not realize they have a forum too. Thanks
CSAY Save my life is what I am trying to do...
I am taking the information gathering process seriously. That is why I was so dissapointed to see no real information from these magazines and books. thanks
9/11, I understand why you posed the polls, and I truly do understand where you're coming from. But I think in the end, you'll just complicate the issue, and will ultimately make yourself more confused.
Let me share a few thoughts, to help you put your mind at ease. Every maker has an incident of malfunction somewhere, and the problem is that when you open the floodgates, people who have even the silliest complaints come out of the woodwork when presented with the opportunity.
To dismiss an otherwise reputable maker for a handful of complaints would be unfortunate. If I went solely by the negative things people said about the Walther, I wouldn't have 500+ rounds through it without a single malfunction. Now, that's reliability, and it will only get better with use. Like many other items, if a flaw in design, materials, or workmanship exists, it will evidence itself in the first few hundred rounds.
One member here summed it up very nicely in another thread when he said (to paraphrase) that a gun, particularly a semi-automatic, is a miniature machine, and any machine can malfunction. There is no 100% guarantee. But, you can hedge your bets by buying the best you can afford.
Think of buying a gun as though you were buying a car. As a general rule of thumb, the more you spend, the more reliability and lifespan you get. To draw a parallel, compare a Dodge Intrepid to a Mercedes S class, and you'll understand why better firearms are more expensive. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, at both ends of the spectrum such as the 'diamonds in the rough' and overpaying for the 'mystique', or 'prestige' of the brand, but the general rule seems to work.
You're definitely asking the right questions, and I think you already have a good bead on the makers whose reputation is established, and earned through quality.
That said, among those better guns, pick what you shoot well. A gun that's 100% reliable is 0% effective if you can't hit what you aim at. Conversely, a gun that's 100% comfortable for you that is a poorly designed, machined and assembled, is just as useless, unless you throw it like a brick.
My read on this is that for the most popular calibers (9, 40, 45), you should expect to spend ~$500 to $700 for pure quality in functionality. Less than that compromises quality engineering in both design, fit and finish, more money gets you a 'prettified' gun that doesn't go 'bang' any better than a more affordable model.
HTH. Just trying to save you from driving yourself nuts by splitting hairs, and getting into a panic over a few isolated negative reports. Best to get out and shoot everything you can, and then buy what works for you. Remember... if you can get married more than once, then why not so with a gun?
Let me share a few thoughts, to help you put your mind at ease. Every maker has an incident of malfunction somewhere, and the problem is that when you open the floodgates, people who have even the silliest complaints come out of the woodwork when presented with the opportunity.
To dismiss an otherwise reputable maker for a handful of complaints would be unfortunate. If I went solely by the negative things people said about the Walther, I wouldn't have 500+ rounds through it without a single malfunction. Now, that's reliability, and it will only get better with use. Like many other items, if a flaw in design, materials, or workmanship exists, it will evidence itself in the first few hundred rounds.
One member here summed it up very nicely in another thread when he said (to paraphrase) that a gun, particularly a semi-automatic, is a miniature machine, and any machine can malfunction. There is no 100% guarantee. But, you can hedge your bets by buying the best you can afford.
Think of buying a gun as though you were buying a car. As a general rule of thumb, the more you spend, the more reliability and lifespan you get. To draw a parallel, compare a Dodge Intrepid to a Mercedes S class, and you'll understand why better firearms are more expensive. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, at both ends of the spectrum such as the 'diamonds in the rough' and overpaying for the 'mystique', or 'prestige' of the brand, but the general rule seems to work.
You're definitely asking the right questions, and I think you already have a good bead on the makers whose reputation is established, and earned through quality.
That said, among those better guns, pick what you shoot well. A gun that's 100% reliable is 0% effective if you can't hit what you aim at. Conversely, a gun that's 100% comfortable for you that is a poorly designed, machined and assembled, is just as useless, unless you throw it like a brick.
My read on this is that for the most popular calibers (9, 40, 45), you should expect to spend ~$500 to $700 for pure quality in functionality. Less than that compromises quality engineering in both design, fit and finish, more money gets you a 'prettified' gun that doesn't go 'bang' any better than a more affordable model.
HTH. Just trying to save you from driving yourself nuts by splitting hairs, and getting into a panic over a few isolated negative reports. Best to get out and shoot everything you can, and then buy what works for you. Remember... if you can get married more than once, then why not so with a gun?
September11
New member
Rovert
You are too funny...your logic and rationality are refreshing.
I was hoping that I would get a large enough response that it would balance the picky complaints and irate few purely with volume. Like you said before, there is no source for this information in the market. What better place to try and acquire it than here?
I probably have made things more complicated than need be but I have purchased several cars for fun and duty. Once, I bought a used Porsche and it cost more to fix than what I paid for it. I thought I was okay buying it because I paid a nice premium - I thought I was "getting what I paid for." I have learned that I may be able to afford a Ferrari but I have to be able to cover the cost of tune-ups too!
This decision is difficult because, as a hobby, I can always buy another one if I don't like this one. But, as a tool to protect my family, I can't afford to choose wrong.
You are too funny...your logic and rationality are refreshing.
I was hoping that I would get a large enough response that it would balance the picky complaints and irate few purely with volume. Like you said before, there is no source for this information in the market. What better place to try and acquire it than here?
I probably have made things more complicated than need be but I have purchased several cars for fun and duty. Once, I bought a used Porsche and it cost more to fix than what I paid for it. I thought I was okay buying it because I paid a nice premium - I thought I was "getting what I paid for." I have learned that I may be able to afford a Ferrari but I have to be able to cover the cost of tune-ups too!
This decision is difficult because, as a hobby, I can always buy another one if I don't like this one. But, as a tool to protect my family, I can't afford to choose wrong.
September11
New member
New_Comer
That thought has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while...
truth is, I am dealing with the wife on this one and only want to fight one battle at a time...
she wants to spend the money on a trip
That thought has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while...
truth is, I am dealing with the wife on this one and only want to fight one battle at a time...
she wants to spend the money on a trip
Explain to your wife that a trip to the morgue costs a lot more than a trip to Disneyland, the former, being an ending that precludes a vacation, the latter being a vacation that will surely come to an end. 
Point taken on the Porsche, but again, there are always exceptions to the rule. My thinking here is that if you get a gun that has a known reputation for reliability, again you're stacking the odds in your favor.
For instance, my matrix looked like this:
I've come to the conclusion that guns are like potato chips. You just can't eat only one.
Point taken on the Porsche, but again, there are always exceptions to the rule. My thinking here is that if you get a gun that has a known reputation for reliability, again you're stacking the odds in your favor.
For instance, my matrix looked like this:
- Maker preferences:
- HK
- SIG
- Baretta
- Glock
- Walther
- Kimber
Caliber: - .45 for stopping power (also, almost synonymous with a 1911)
- 9mm for availability of ammunition (.40 is somewhat harder to come by)
Test shooting: - HK .45 was too big for my hands - I wasn't as accurate as with a 1911 (sounds like you came to that same conclusion)
- Barretta's trigger travel was too 'shallow', but otherwise, very the gun was very smooth.
- Glock trigger didn't feel comfortable in shooting - vibrations from recoil were transferred through the safety, focused at that single point where it made contact with my finger, and started causing discomfort, almost like a stinging sensation.
- SIG: The closest contender, if I hadn't gone with the Walther and the Kimber.
Pattern: Strong preference for a 1911 and/or 'techno' polymer 'ergo' gun
Final choices: - Kimber for the 1911. What can I say? Classic style, stellar workmanship. There are a few better, but I can't afford them right now. It offered a LOT of 'bang for the buck', even though it's still a bit pricey at a grand.
- Walther: Met all my requirements for comfort, and quality, while also having a high 'cool' factor.
In the final analysis, it distills to an amalgam of 4 factors: - Quality
- Comfort
- Caliber
- Cost
I've come to the conclusion that guns are like potato chips. You just can't eat only one.
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September11
New member
You’re right about the morgue! Unless it is me going who gets whacked, then she makes out pretty like mad on insurance!
You are also right about the pistol issue. I should just go shoot a bunch and buy the one I like the best. I am used to knowing about the products that I spend my money on… cars, performance tires, snow skis, hell – they even have reports on nose hair trimmers. You would think this information would be easier to come by! It will probably take me years to gain the knowledge I really would like to have prior to making this purchase but I don’t want to wait that long.
I do find it interesting that your list of preferred makes only had one 1911 manufacturer on it??? Walther does also have a high “cool” factor. Soo many choices…It is like chips… one is never enough but all is usually too many!
BTW I have been very impressed with the results of the CZ poll. I have listened to a lot of people who swear by their Glock or Sig but I did not know there was such a huge CZ following too???
You are also right about the pistol issue. I should just go shoot a bunch and buy the one I like the best. I am used to knowing about the products that I spend my money on… cars, performance tires, snow skis, hell – they even have reports on nose hair trimmers. You would think this information would be easier to come by! It will probably take me years to gain the knowledge I really would like to have prior to making this purchase but I don’t want to wait that long.
I do find it interesting that your list of preferred makes only had one 1911 manufacturer on it??? Walther does also have a high “cool” factor. Soo many choices…It is like chips… one is never enough but all is usually too many!
BTW I have been very impressed with the results of the CZ poll. I have listened to a lot of people who swear by their Glock or Sig but I did not know there was such a huge CZ following too???
Reports are that the CZ is a very nice gun, and that's what I referred to as 'the diamond in the rough', since it obviously has a high dollar-to-value ratio. I just liked the feel of the P99, and who can argue the Eclipse's great looks?
The reason I listed only Kimber as my choice for a 1911 was because of the poll that I posted here: (check it out, if you're interested in a 1911 pattern gun)http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85445
The responses there, advice from a friend who's a shooter, and glowing feedback from just about everyone I asked, removed all doubt in my mind.
Like you, I also research a great deal before making an important decision, but I also have learned that after a while, you reach a point of diminishing returns. Experience is the best teacher. All the reading in the world wouldn't have told me what 20 rounds through the H&K .45 was like, as compared to a 1911.
Again, bottom line: you need to shoot a few different makers and patterns. That will give you a sense of the manufacturer's 'feel' and I'm c onfident you will start forming opinions and likes/dislikes very quickly. Either it fits, or it doesn't.
Remember, if you buy something, and find after a while you're not happy with it, the used gun market is brisk these days. You can always buy another, based on your accumulated experience. Also, if you join a gun club, many members are very friendly, and will let you try their guns (usually under their supervision).
It's in the doing, not in the reading, where the rubber meets the road. Spending time with a weapon is the only way to know for sure.
Good luck!
The reason I listed only Kimber as my choice for a 1911 was because of the poll
that I posted here: (check it out, if you're interested in a 1911 pattern gun)http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85445The responses there, advice from a friend who's a shooter, and glowing feedback from just about everyone I asked, removed all doubt in my mind.
Like you, I also research a great deal before making an important decision, but I also have learned that after a while, you reach a point of diminishing returns. Experience is the best teacher. All the reading in the world wouldn't have told me what 20 rounds through the H&K .45 was like, as compared to a 1911.
Again, bottom line: you need to shoot a few different makers and patterns. That will give you a sense of the manufacturer's 'feel' and I'm c onfident you will start forming opinions and likes/dislikes very quickly. Either it fits, or it doesn't.
Remember, if you buy something, and find after a while you're not happy with it, the used gun market is brisk these days.
You can always buy another, based on your accumulated experience. Also, if you join a gun club, many members are very friendly, and will let you try their guns (usually under their supervision).It's in the doing, not in the reading, where the rubber meets the road. Spending time with a weapon is the only way to know for sure.
Good luck!