Help me find "real" information

S

September11

New member
I have been doing research toward making my first pistol purchase. I have rented and shot several pistols.
I have also read magazines, books and web forums as well as spoken to gunsmiths and local shooting enthusiast.
I am still unable to find the last set of data I have been hoping to find…long term reliability reports.

When I buy a used car, I narrow my decision to one or two models and then research the strengths and weaknesses of those specific cars. I can find out what problems are most common for certain model years and what recalls have been posted so I know how the car should perform in the long term. Does this kind of documentation exist for firearms? Murphy says if something can go wrong it will and at the worst possible time… I would like to make an informed decision and be prepared. I hear people talk about “out of the box” readiness. That implies that some guns need as little as a trigger adjustment and others need much more. If I decide to by a Kimber Eclipse, Colt Commander or whatever I want to know if I should be prepared to pay more for minor adjustments or should expect to replace the slide after a few thousand rounds!!!!

Can anyone recommend a reliable source to acquire this information?
 
11 September

Welcome to TFL. Your question is an excellent one. I suggest you make use of our archives (see "search" above), which are loaded with relevant information.

Without yet recommending a specific handgun, may I respectfully suggest you first answer a series of questions that should lead to category of sidearms from which you can select an optimum handgun. For example:

> Intended use or uses?
> Semiautomatic or revolver?
> If semiautomatic, single action, double action only, or SA/DA?
> Concealed carry?
> What caliber preference, if any?
> What price range desired?
> Any specific manufactures to exclude or to include?

For whatever it's worth, MANY first time handgun buyers begin with a high quality .38 Special/.357 magnum revolver (such as a Ruger GP-100 or a Smith 686). Our archives are loaded with good information concerning why an excellent revolver makes sense as well as the pros and cons of various models. Once you answer some/all of the above questions, you will doubtless receive many recommendations regarding specific handguns.

Finally, it is very important for you to handle and fire each "serious candidate" to ascertain your individual preferences re hand and trigger feel, manual of arms, sight picture, accuracy, personal comfort, and so forth. There is no single handgun panacea, and you certainly will want to test the candidates on your "short list".
 
There are no Consumer Reports results for firearms. The best you can hope for is to use the search function for our some what less than subjective reports.:D
 
There is Guntest magazine, which works like Consumer Reports, but their conclusions are often.... odd.

I like to use general sites like this one and brand specific sites to try and find trends. One complaint about a problem is meaningless, 20 and it's something to think about.

If you're looking at a Colt the question becomes even harder due to Colt's up and down quality over the years. Newer CNC type production guns (HK, Glock, Ruger) you'll get the pluses and minuses of quickly. Older designs have more of a human hand in their fit and function, making it harder to find a trend. And if you're looking at 1911 types, good luck! 1911 lovers spread more bad info than even the acursed Glock people. That's why it's always so easy to say "Hey, buy a Sig or HK" and leave it at that. Some guns are solid bets, others are gambles.
 
This forum is probably, in my opinion....the single best source for handgun information. Most of the handgun purchases I have made or avoided was due to information on this site.

If you can't find useful info in a search, just post what you might like in a gun (RWK set up some good questions).....if you do that, you will most certainly get feedback on possible options.
 
Pistol is just a tool. As a threshold question, first ask what you want to do--fight with it, shoot tins cans, play cowboy, etc. Then make your pick. It will be incorrect, so relax then pick again.

Every weapon has pluses and minuses, just like most cars. Almost everyone on TFL can make valid points about Sigs or Glocks or Les Baer or whatever. You will not be disappointed to spending money to do it right. When you settle on one, buy 4 of them and a truck load of magazines and spare parts. Next, go to school a bunch then shoot a lot.
 
9/11 - What do you want it for? What do you expect from it?

Race Gun (competition) Yes, there will be some tweeking involved and on going tweeking as well. The proformance will be unmatched by a box stock weapon.

Carry gun - there should be no tweeking whatso ever required when new, at 5,000 rounds, at 10k you may need to change some mag springs, at 20k some mag and recoil springs.


This is kind of the range of limitations.

For the most part:

any of the big 4 names in auto pistols of the non - 1911 variety will be reliable out of the box and more accuarate than you are.

Beretta
Glock
HK
Sig

Some may add CZ and Ruger to the list. I can only account for what I know about 1st hand.(Although the ones that I have fired and those that have them lead me to believe that they probably ought to be included.)

1911s are a breed unto themselves. Mixed reviews will be found but in general a looser 1911 is more reliable and a tighter one is more accurate.

As with most everything else in life - you get what you pay for.

Identify your needs and your expections, size up your finaces and make your choice.

You say that you have rented and shot several. Pick the one you shot the best, purchase it, buy lots of ammo, get some instruction in the type of shooting you want to pursue and become GOOD with that weapon.

Good luck
 
Welcome to TFL 9/11 !!!:)

Look no further! Everything u need is here, unadulterated user-level first-hand information in any gun-related subject u can think of. Just state your requirements or concerns, or search the thousands of threads in the TFL database, which also include links to other reputable sites. You'll get what you want to know.

Regards,

New_comer;)

PS: Buying the first gun is like the first day of school. Mixed emotions and all, but u just have to go ahead and do it. It ain't so bad once you've done it. The bad thing is... like going thru school's opening day all over again next year, you may find yourself queuing for that next gun purchase, and the next, and the next...
 
Just keep buying guns until you found what you want. Then sell the ones you didn't like to TFL members at a deep discount. Pretty soon, you will be the most popular TFL member ever. :p
 
The problem here is that on any such questions we tend to hear from the "true believers" who think that Brand X or Type Y is the best and only. Also on this forum, no one ever suggests a revolver; sort of like telling Osama he should convert to Judaism.

If there is a range in your area that rents guns, spend a few bucks and try some different ones, including revolvers. If not, check with friends and see if you can borrow and try some of the ones you are considering. Gun shops can be a source of good info, but can also be a source of pure baloney, plus they want to sell guns and will push what they have in stock.

Jim
 
WOW !
Thank you all for the welcome and the great feedback.

RWK - thanks for the encouragement

>use? home defense, range shooting and maybe practical events
>Semi – definitely semi
>SA, DA or DAO? – undecided
>Concealed carry? Probably not
>Price? I expect to pay between $700 and $900 … willing to pay for quality but don’t want to spend 2 grand
>Manufacturers..??? looking at Kimber and researching others…I wasn’t comfortable with the Glock or H&K but did like the feel of the SA and Kimber. I don’t yet know if it is a weight/polymer thing or a 1911 thing.

Thanks

Blades67, Handy, JG – thanks a lot for your input – I am searching the archives now!

KSFreeman –my brother is an attorney and his emails sound just like yours!!! Thanks

Mo_Zam_Beek - great information, lot's to think about - thanks
 
11 September, thanks for the kind words . . . more information follows

Now that you have "narrowed the field" a little, let me offer some suggestions for your consideration.

The most popular semiautomatic calibers include the 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Other calibers (including the 10mm, .357 Sig, 9x18 and 9x17/.380) can be excellent, but I recommend -- at least for the purpose of this discussion -- that we limit consideration to the first group. I begin with caliber selection because it will drive an important characteristic for any autoloader: magazine capacity.

With the .45 ACP -- my favorite semiautomatic round -- you are normally limited to a maximum 10+1 capacity; however with the smaller rounds, such as the 9x19 and the .40 S&W, pre-ban magazines in excess of 10 rounds are often available (although they can be expensive).

I greatly like the proven potency of the .45 ACP. In addition, it is a relatively low pressure round, which implies less stress on the autoloader. Further, it is readily available and it is also one of the most inherently accurate rounds. If you want a "45", you must decide between a "1911A1 type" and others (including Sigs, H&K USPs, Glocks, Berettas, CZ 97Bs, Rugers and so forth). I have several outstanding non-1911A1 .45 ACPs (Sig P-220, Glock 36, H&K USP Tactical), but I personally prefer the full-size 1911A1 designs -- particularly due to the single action manual of arms. In the price range you've indicated, you can find MANY excellent 1911A1s. I favor the Springfield TRP (available for <$1200), but other "loaded" Springfields and Kimbers are unquestionably excellent and readily available in the $600 to $900 range. Colt's quality during the last ten years has been inconsistent, and I would not buy a Colt for that reason.

Among the non-1911A1 .45 ACPs, the Sigs and H&K USPs are clearly superb in every respect: accuracy, reliability, durability, quality, fit and finish, and so forth. Many experienced marksmen put Glocks in that same category; I find my two Glocks (a 23C and a 36) to be superior in every aspect except accuracy, although I emphasize this is likely my individual inability to acclimate to the Glock trigger/striker system. I would urge you to try the Sig P-220 (perhaps the new all stainless model), the full-size H&K USP, and the CZ 97B.

If you prefer a 9x19 or .40 S&W, you will be confronted with a happy dilemma: there are many really excellent alternatives to select from, virtually all in you price range. Once again, Sigs, H&K UPSs, Glocks, Berettas, CZs, Rugers and so forth should be on your "trial list".

I would strongly recommend you:

> Carefully consider the "manual of arms" for each candidate. For example, do you want an external safety and, if so, could it be located on the slide? Will a Glock's "trigger on the trigger" safety be satisfactory? Do you want a decocker and, if so, will you also want an external safety? Answering these questions will help you decide which of the above -- and outstanding -- designs is optimal for you.

> Finally, it is very important for you to handle and fire each "serious candidate", regardless of caliber, design, or manual of arms. You really need to ascertain your individual preferences re hand, grip and trigger feel, manual of arms, sight picture, accuracy, personal comfort, size/weight/balance, and so forth. There is no single handgun panacea, and you certainly will want to test all the candidates on your "short list".
 
What RWK Said

He hit the nail squarely on the head. Figure into your budget at least four high quality magazines and 1,000 rounds of practice ammo to start.

Truthfully, I wish you could also figure in a good quality .22 pistol like the Ruger or Browning for acclimation and practice. Virtually no recoil or muzzle blast with these and they will help you develop good accuracy skills.

Also please try to budget your time and money to attend a good shooting class or two. Some of the NRA classes are great and I can't recommend John Farnam's Basic Defensive Pistol Class highly enough.

Good Luck and let us know how you are doing. jack
 
9/11, welcome to the board. I feel your pain. :rolleyes: Like you, I just went through this process myself, and I'm still going through it. Everyone here has offered me much sound advice, based on common sense recommendations, so let me consolidate what little I have learned so far, and share it with you.

BTW, standard disclaimers apply: IMO, IMHO, YMMV, CYA, and others. Just want you to be clear this is how I made MY decision. You need to make the choice that's right for you.

The first bit of advice I got was to shoot everything I could get my hands on, because each maker has a design and craftsmanship tradition that has a 'feel'. You would be surprised how quickly you can form an opinion on the suitability of a gun for your use. Find a range that rents, and invest $100 to avoid a $600+ bad decision. I consider it 'insurance' for having peace of mind, and knowing at least for sure what's NOT right for me.

The second bit of good advice I can offer is a list of priorities for making a decision that I derived from the help of everyone here:

1) Quality/Reputation (speaks to reliability)
2) Fit/Comfort (how accurately can I shoot it?)
3) Parts, warranty support, and accessory availability
4 - 9) Amalgam of subjective factors relating to fit, finish, operation, and other model/maker-specific idiosyncracies.
10) Price

Here's my original thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83695

In the final analysis, I bought two guns so far. One Kimber Custom Eclipse II, since every collection should have at least one 1911 .45, and a Walther P99. This strategy appeased my appreciation for tradition and craftsmanship, while also supplying a fix for the 'techno-junkie' side of my personality.

The P99 has proven itself to be terrific, with not a single malfunction in 400 rounds in the 3 days since I bought it. Haven't fired the Kimber yet, but will shortly. These two choices covered me in my areas of concern, but also get very high style points in the 'purty' and 'cool' categories, respectively. :D

Bottom line here is that if you go with a leading brand, such as mentioned here (HK, Beretta, SIG, Glock, Kimber, Walther, etc.) you'll be good to go. Consider this, though (and this is just one man's opinion...) the 1911 continues to be one of the best selling handgun designs ever. It has endured the test of time, for over 90 years, and many wars, for a reason. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. For your first gun, you might want to consider a sidearm that has been a staple for nearly a century.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85445

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
 
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This is GREAT!
RWK, Jack Carson and Rovert – Excellent Information!
I feel like I have been eating lettuce for weeks and finally got some meat to chew on!
Thanks!
I forgot to mention in my earlier response. I do want a .45 pistol.

Also, I live in Portland Oregon and am limited to two or three ranges that have rentals. (There are a number of excellent ranges in Seattle that I have tried to use but they have had several suicides and now have a new rules that prevents people who are alone from renting from them.)

RWK – sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean by “manual of arms” is this the user manual that comes with each weapon??? I know manufacturers make user manuals available from their web sites and I am willing to do this but want to make sure I am understanding your recommendations.

I definitely appreciate the ease of disassembly of the non-1911 models (Sig, H&K) but haven’t yet found one that I have a good feel for while shooting, but I have only shot two… I will keep trying – I also haven’t concluded my answers to the questions about triggers and external safeties. I need to shoot more to gain that knowledge of feel, balance, sight picture, etc.

Rovert, thanks – your feedback is also very helpful. I have used the search mode to try and find similar threads but often come up with completely unrelated topics… I will continue searching but thanks for the threads!
 
The manual of arms is the operation of the pistol. In other words, is it just point and shoot? Do you have to flip off a safety? Decock when you reholster? Consider these when buying a pistol. Some of us do not like manual safeties because it is just one more thing to slow us down. On the other hand, some of us like "cocked and locked" carry, which is how you carry a 1911.

I would advise against Gun Tests magazine because they do not test a large enough sample from each manufacturer to make a true judgment. If you test one gun and it breaks, you can't conclude that all of company X's guns are crap. You need to have a large enough sample size to find any real results.
 
11 September . . .

.357SIG provided a good definition for "manual of arms". It is the operational regimen for a particular firearm, NOT the paper or digital instructional manual.

This relates to my points to you in earlier posts re types of actions, safeties, de-cockers, etc. It is VERY important because -- among other things -- it describes a semiautomatic as single action, double action, or double action only. SA, DA, DAO, the safeties, de-cockers, and so forth -- thus the "manual of arms" -- really differentiate autoloader designs and, therefore, are key elements in your selection.

To illustrate, 1911A1s (Kimbers, Springfields, Colts, etc.) are Single Action semiautomatics -- they can only fire when the hammer is fully cocked. In comparison, the Sig P-220 (also an excellent .45 ACP autoloader) is SA/DA -- it can fire either with the hammer fully cocked (lighter trigger pull in SA) or with the hammer fully down/un-cocked (heavier trigger pull in DA).

My critical point is all of these design characteristics and features will make a particular autoloader ideal for you; in the above example, both a Sig P-220 and a "loaded" Springfield 1911A1 are great semiautomatics, but they are very different -- even though they both use the .45 ACP round and they are both extremely fine handguns.

By learning the various "manuals of arms" and by actually handling and shooting your top alternatives, you will be able to select the best autoloader FOR YOU.
 
Excellent explaination of the manual RWK - thanks agian!
This aspect of the decision has not been discussed in all the reading I have done, and it is abviously important... it would be like buying pants that don't fit!
 
9/11 - From P town? Cool. SO. OR. (I lived in Portland / Salem for 10 yrs). Do you ever make it out the "The Place to Shoot"? The folks that work there are full of air but it is a decent indoor range.

NW Armory in Portland is about the best place I know there. Believe it or not the store (forgot the name) over in St. John's [near starbucks] is very good too.

good luck
 
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