Help ma build a long-range rifle

What problem areas you need to look for on used rifles depends on what accuracy you want to get? How much accuracy do you want at 1000 yards?

I've got used rifles that'll shoot 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards with my reloads. There are used rifles in stores that'll shoot no better than 50 inches at 1000 yards with the best ammo anyone can make.

What are your expectations? If the used rifle's groove diameter is larger than the bullets you want to shoot, it probably won't shoot under 24 inches a long way down range. If its barrel has a smaller groove diameter but an extremely eroded leade from several thousand rounds, it's another wash tub gun; that's the size of the groups it'll shoot.

Savage rifles in .308 Win. have twists from 1:10 to 1:13 inches. 1:10's are best with 190 and 200 grain bullets, 1:12 good with 165 to 180 grain bullets, 1:13 are for 150 and 155 grain ones. Aftermarket 30 caliber barrels can be made with twists from 7 to 18 inches.
 
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So.....what grain do I NEED to shoot to best achieve my goal. Would the heavies have too low velocity? Would the lights have too low BC? Should I go for the middle weights? If I recall correctly, I believe most shooters go_to is in the 160 range, maybe?
 
Sights have nothing to do with inherent accuracy of rifles.
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That's true but very misleading. Disregards the importance of the optics. Inherent accuracy isn't the whole story.

I suppose it probably depends on how good your eyesight is to begin with. If really good, then the current glass will probably do ya. If like me - not so good - you'll appreciate having spent more on the optics. 1K is extreme range, of course.
 
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Bart and Kraig are certainly the two guys I would listen to. Each one most likely has more experience long range and rifle accuracy than a whole lot of us others lumped together.

Inherent accuracy is extremely important, but I agree with Dremel you need a good optic, or a good set of irons (with good eyes) to be able to USE that inherent accuracy.

I don't want to make this XYZ brand discussion, however I would avoid the Stevens 200 and use a Savage. My experience in the grand world of shooting? I am a paper pusher / counter jockey for a large firearms store, but I get sent around often to shoot with firearm company reps, optics makers, ect. I get to play with lots of stuff, but I don't get to shoot long range as much as I'd like to like Kraid and Bart have.

Long range... accurate controlled long range..... and cheap.... are not very easy to do unfortunately. I recomend the Savage for a few reasons. First, although some corners are cut, they are known to be out of the box shooters, that don't cost an arm and a leg. Second, once you do start learning as you go... you DON'T need to be a gunsmith to work on a Savage or replace a barrel, saving you time and money.

I too chose .308 for my LR rig, for the same reasons you state. I am no longer full time counter jockey, I am also a school teacher, so I don't have tons of money or time to reload some exotic rounds (however my next build will probably be 6.5 Creedmoore)

Based on your questions and what you are looking at, I would really suggest buying a factory Savage model 10, they make ones with their Accustock, or McMillian or HS Percision. The Accu-trigger allbeit I hate the feel of it is a decent enough trigger. They are shooters. The most important thing is learning to shoot / read environment variables and adjusting accordingly like others have suggested. Once you seem to get good and start learning... replace the barrel, replace the stock, replace the trigger, invest in some percision reloading equipment (a hobby of its own now) ect.

This is what I am currently doing (learning and upgrading as I go.) although based on my job, and my pro-staff memberships, I was able to start at a higher price point.

Right now I have a Kimber 8400 Advanced Tactical in .308 with a Vortex Razor HD 5-20x56mm on a 20MOA rail, with Vortex branded (I think they are contracted Badger Ord or Seekins Percision rings) matched rings. The Kimber rifle already had a lot of the custom work you are looking into done on it from the factory, I had our gun-smith look it over anyways. We adjusted the trigger down to ~2lbs and torqued everything properly and equally for me. The gun is much more accurate than I am, and capable of that accuracy at greater distances than I am experienced at shooting yet. Right now I am practicing my skills with factory ammo and building up a good brass supply to start handloading.

Now others will scoff because it seems like I spent a lot, which normally I would have, but keep in mind I was part of their pro-staff, and things cost me roughly 50% of MSRP.

Savage makes some nice accurate .308's for the money.. I also got to shoot their long range hunter 6.5 creedmoore with their reps, which I really liked for a factory rifle.

My rifle...

 
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So.....what grain do I NEED to shoot to best achieve my goal. Would the heavies have too low velocity? Would the lights have too low BC? Should I go for the middle weights? If I recall correctly, I believe most shooters go_to is in the 160 range, maybe?
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If you are starting out, get a bunch of Fed GMM or Black Hills 175gr SMK loads to shoot.

If you want to roll your own, stick with the 175 SMK. It won't likely stay supersonic to 1k but it handles the transonic region so well that you won't have any issues. There are about a gajillion threads in the reloading section on making accurate 308 match ammo, so I won't rehash any of that here.

Seriously, pick one load that shoots well in your rifle, then either buy a few thousand, or load a few thousand, and go shooting.

Jimro
 
As Jim suggests that is EXACTLY what I did. Kimber made it easy for me because they factory test and gaurantee accuracy for both Federal Gold Match 168 and 175 SMK ammo, so thats all I have bought for it, and save the brass.
 
While I wouldn't avoid a Stevens action, I built a LR .243 on that action and it did quite well. I've since sold it and have moved on to the M700 action for my next LR build. I can tell you however, you can't build a Savage/Stevens 200 for less than $1000.

If you can get into a Savage action for $200, you'll have $100+ in trigger, and $200-250 in blue printing. Add in a barrel and you're looking at $700-800 in just the action and barrel. That doesn't leave you much money for a stock and optics mounts.

The .308 Win is hard to beat for a beginner LR rifle. Way more ammunition choices out there for you to try especially if you don't reload your own. If and when you do there is a lot of great components to use.

I like the idea of buying a factory rifle first as suggested. Most rifles will shoot better than you at first and when you start out. Once you start to out shoot the rifle that's when you start upgrading or building.

Most of all whatever you choose to do have fun with it.
 
While not looking at long range I have looked into the same general topic

I will disagree to a degree on the sights. If your eyes work fine, they are not an issue. If not a sight is danged important as good glass helps eyes that are not so good. If you are in that 40s transition age consider good glass as important.

Fluting in my opinion is a luxury, cool looks that does not really add accuracy (lighter with supposedly no loss of accuracy)

As mentioned, you could buy a reasonably priced target 308 as a starter, learn the trade as it were and when the barrel is gone replace it. Used guns for this purpose are iffy as you do not know if they shot the daylights out of it or not.

that would put the emphasis on what model offers the easiest least costly replaced barrels and installation.

CZ seems to turn out some good rifles and one guy had his taken down to true it up. Waste of time as the OEM setup was spot on per the gun smith. I am not advocating them, just add into the consideration.
 
I looked at a few rifles today, I will have more time to moll them over tomorrow. seems like now isn't the best time to get a good price on a deer rifle. I haven't hit the pawn shops yet, but I would prefer brand new, just because I could sell the brand new barrel and that would give me half the cash towards a better barrel(hopefully). I am pretty much sold on the stvens/savage just because the parts market is huge and everyone makes pre-fit barrels and stocks for them. as for ammo, I am not concerned about that, I don't buy factory ammo and already have piles of .308 projectiles to play with. I was more asking what twist I should look for to run the bullets that are commonly getting good results with distance rifles. looks like 1:10 or 1:11 should suffice.

I did come across a used rifle that had an osprey 40x scope on top. I don't know anything about them and I know 40x might be overkill, but it was a good deal even w/o the scope. are osprey scopes any good or are they just cheapo hi-mags that aren't going to work anyway?

I understand everyone's point to just buy a decent rifle and get to it, worry about upgrades later. I know that is the smartest way to go about it. I 'm not very smart though, and this is just something I want to do and have fun with. at least this way I can't blame the rifle, plus I want to get as much $$ for the new OEM parts if I do go new.

this is most likely going to be the last rifle I buy for many years, it's the last part to my collection that I don't have and I want it to be as close to top of the line as I can afford. I have pistols and ARs and old mil-surps and PCC's, even a long range .223. but I don't have anything to really get out there and touch something. just saying that I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree, I just want a cool rifle that I built up myself. that's just how I roll.......like a dumb kid.

if anyone could give me advice on aftermarket barrels, like the ones I linked to and the osprey scope, I would appreciate it. seems like stock choices are endless and mostly going to boil down to personal preference.

p.s. "blueprinting"?:confused: I have heard the term many times, but what does it really consist of
 
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"Blueprinting, what does it consist of?" Basically good bit of cash for paying a skilled machinist to do the job to the with the amount of precision that that can make the improvement in accuracy that only the very best marksmen can take advantage of.

Indicating to bolt in a fixture the lathe to .0001-.0002 and removing just enough to square the bolt face and lugs. This can be very time consuming and tedious work, and most importantly a machine operator that is quality minded enough to do things in an excellent manner.

Then squaring the bolt lugs and bolt face.

Setting up the receiver in a fixture that will indicate it to the same degree of precision. Single point cutting the receiver threads true to that axis, again to
.0001-.0002. taking small cuts to remove as little material as possible.

Single point cutting the receiver face, again removing as little material as possible.

Reaming the receiver to be true on that axis and shimming the bolt body for about .002 and turning to the above same level of accuracy/clearance to ensure that everything locks up like a finely made bank vault.

Depending on the receiver, (Remingtons will require some extremely accurate measuring to cut the bolt face recess, and diameter) then indicating the barrel with a spider, again to the same precision .0001-.0002.

Single point turning and threading the barrel tenon and shoulder so that the receiver screws on with no wiggle or slop. Again, when you are getting close, time to screw the receiver on and check it to make sure that is screws on with no slop or wiggle. This is best done a little at a time because you can't put it back after you turn it off. With remingtons, cutting the recess in the barrel for the bolt face to engage into "Three rings of steel"

Then cutting the chamber with the barrel indicated as close as possible to .0001-.0002. Cutting slowly and again, when you get close, checking the head space.

That kind of basically covers it. As you can see, people that are capable and skilled enough to accomplish it (with a mind set for excellence in how they do things) usually aren't cheap as the tools and equipment involved are not cheap.

And time- Time is money. If you are talking about real blueprinting, then this is a very basic explanation of the process. There are other tools and reamers made for the above operations that cut to predetermined sizes, some even made for use with a hand drill. :eek:

This is what you get when you buy a Borden, Pierce, Stiller, etc.

Back to the time is money. Some folks don't like to make what they call "sissy cuts" as shop time is money. It will be put together there, but that is a production attitude which you can get in a factory rifle. If you find someone cheap and fast, then just buy a factory action.

Guys that do this stuff right are artisan/craftsman type folks, perfectionist if you will. It bothers them if things are not as near close to perfect as possible, it keeps them from sleeping at night if it's not the very best job.

You pay for it, and after all, that level of skill demands it.

They usually expect a rifle done this way to shoot .5 MOA. But they are usually not going to warranty that.

This is why I like the Savage setup. They are usually fairly straight, you can lap the lugs yourself since you can then reset the headspace without re-cutting the barrel shoulder. Just screw in in a hair more.

Indicate and true bolt face and lugs, floating bolt head adequately addresses the rest.

If you are not a serious pro, you likely will not be able to shoot the above mentioned expertly machined job any better that the savage with a good barrel.

Good optics will do more to improve your shooting than a custom rifle will.

Unless you are someone who has spent their life shooting a heavy match rifle as a career or a professional competitor, Then you might shoot irons as good.

To me, Iron sights are for pistols and .30-30s. I agree with the person above who said get a good scope. It will help you learn to shoot better.
 
cool, thanks. that definitely sounds like something I would only do down the road after I am already able to shoot sub-moa out to my preferred distance. thanks for everyone's input. I am pretty sure I won't be able to put this off as long as I planned, I will probably go ahead and pull the trigger on, at very least, the rifle this coming week. I will keep it updated and still welcome everyone's opinion whether I ended up taking the advice or not.

still need opinions on scope mounts for the stevens/savage receiver; brand name/height etc. and some good brands/contours of pre-fit barrels. like I said, I would like to go 24-30", weight is not a consideration. I will get a good bit of shopping in tomorrow, hopefully I will be able to post some pics of my new blank canvas.
 
Commercial actions "blue printed" to produce accuracy equal to that of custom actions costing 3+ times as much have only the following done in the order shown:

1. Square the receiver face with the barrel tenon axis.

2. Lap the locking lugs to 100% contact.

3. Square the bolt face with it in the receiver and closed fully using a mill/lap in a bushing threaded into and and against the receiver face.

That's all, folks. Anything else in marketing hype, in my opinion. Win 70's have been so fixed and nothing has shot any more accurate than they have to date. Accuracy equals all shots fired; not just those lucky few. And that's a mandatory must if you want to shoot sub-MOA at 1000 yards; consistantly.

.308 Win's bullets tend to shoot most accurate at longer ranges with 24 - 26 inch barrels with the following bullet weight - twists:

150 - 155 grain, 1:13, or even a 1:14 in warm weather; both with 28" or longer barrels
168 - 180 grain, 1:12
180 - 200 grain, 1:11
200 - 210-grain, 1:10
210 - 220 grain, 1:9
240 - 250 grain, 1:8

I think Sierra's 175 HPMK's a good choice for up to 1000 yards. It replaced Sierra's 168 in military long range precision ammo because it stayed supersonic through 1000 yards from M14's 22" barrels. Very accurate, too. It virtually duplicates the old military M2 FMJBT bullet of 173-gr. that won so many matches and set records at 1000 yards starting in the 1920's.
 
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To add on to Bart B.'s response with the "why" behind each step....

The reason for squaring the receiver shoulder with the threads means that the mating surface between the barrel and the receiver will have uniform pressure all the way around. On a Savage this means a barrel nut should technically also be trued, but I really don't think that is necessary.

Lapping the bolt lugs to 100% contact means that the final lockup of the bolt will discribute rearward forces evenly under recoil. This means the bolt won't turn get "tweaked" to one side or the other to throw extra vibrations into the system and cause the brass case head to be out of true. I don't recommend lapping to 100% with any action that has been case hardened as that much material removal can remove the surface hardening, but that shouldn't be an issue here.

Lapping the bolt face to be true with the receiver threads means that your brass will move backwards uniformly, and the case heads won't be bent out of alignment. This makes it easier for your reloaded brass to have the same accuracy as virgin brass, otherwise you'll probably lose about a quarter minute of accuracy on reloads in my experience.

I don't recommend that gunsmiths chase receiver tenon threads. If the action is so out of true that threads need recutting to center the barrel, best to scrap the action and start with a fresh one. When installing a barrel the gunsmith should cut the threads on the barrel to fit the receiver so that there is no slop in the fit. When screwing the action on to the barrel there should be no play between them after two turns.

Hope this helps,
Jimro
 
Skizzum, good luck with your build. You gents are amazing. So, I found a smith close enough to drive to with a good reputation. No negative info to be found whatsoever on the place. Is rechambering necessary when blueprinting an action? They have a package that includes blueprinting the receiver, rechambering the barrel, recrowning the barrel, and bedding the action for $375.00. Does that sound reasonable? Should I just do a blueprint of the action only? The smith is S&S Precision, Argyle TX. This is on a 700 varmint 308, timney 510, b&c medalist.
 
zach,

rechamber, not necessarily, setting the headspace, absolutely yes.

But, depending on how much wear you have on the throat, rechambering might be adviseable. Otherwise your smith will at a minimum set the headspace by removing a few thousands as needed from the barrel shoulder and chamber face to set a minimal headspace.

Most smiths will rechamber if the current chamber is out of round, or off center. But it is one of those, "it depends" type answers.

In a Savage, where headspace is controlled via barrel nut, no rechambering necessary.

Jimro
 
I have a great lead on a savage .308, probably 20 years old or more. hasn't been shot more than one time. I am planning om getting out to see it next week.

I have an uncle on my wifes side, he has excess of 100 rifles, barely ever used any of them. he is single, retired and oretty much a hermit. I wouldn't be surprised if he lets me walk out without payig a dime. although he has had his eye on our Taurus 357 poly, which I will be happy to make that trade. we'll see how it goes. I am also planning to let my finnish m39 go, I am going to make a video tomorrow at my families lamd to advertise what it can do. its a darn amazingly accuracte nagant, with a VKT re-barrel from the finns, all numbers matvhing, just one huge problem, only has cheap aftermarket stock....and the original finn stocks are liyerally impossible to find. so I am hoping to get about 350 for the m39 including sealed 500+ rounds of 54r, and hopefuly I will be getting started o this savage/stevens faster than I had hoped.

sorry, I am rambling, jus excited to get a ecent lomg range rifle that I built myself, I know this will be a omg project.....4=6 moths, but that's the fun in it for me.

are the older savage's/syevens better than the newer? are there any problem years I should stay away from? any exceptional years I should keep my eyes glued for?

also, still waiting to hear what are some good aftermarket pre-fit barrel makers out there. and what would be a good scope mount.

let me know if anyone wants to make a deal on an amazing condition finn. I will post a vid of the 100 yard groups it can do tomorrow.
 
Savage barrels may be the best pre-fit ones. They're easy to headspace on their barrel nut receivers. I don't think any of the others are all that good.

Weaver scope mounts are low cost and very reliable on 20 MOA rails you'll need to use scopes for longer ranges.
 
if I buy the savage .223. is it as simple as just a barel swap to convert to .308? they are both a shprt action right? what would I need to get done the the bolt? would I need a whole new bolt?
 
Besides the barrel you'll need a new magazine unless you want to shoot single shot. You'll have to change out the bolt head as well. It isn't complicated but you'll be better off buying a .308 if that is what you really want.
 
cool. thanks, i'll stick with the .308, doesn't really seem to be a price difference between the two. I was just wondering I case I came up on a used 223 I couldn't pass up.
 
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