HELP.. loading 1851 navy

C

capkid

Inactive
Hello,
First time here....
I have a 1851 confd. navy colt relvr.
Going to shoot it for the first time on sat.
Thought that I would load it f/ the shoot....
used:
1) 30 g of shockey's gold(fffg) powder
2) cabela's lubed wool wads
3) hornady 44 cal ball .451
-No I haven't capped the cycls yet!
Filled w/ powder, added wads-rammed down-not crushed powder
rammed down ball-shaved ring-didn't force-went around twice
Question:
Balls are below rim of cycldr.-worst maybe 1/4-1/8"
Did I do something wrong? I researched how to load-something about corn meal?
Am I going to blow my hand off?
Any help w/ be appericated.
Sorry, I know FAls,AKs,ARs,Lugars,1911,etc...
Just not BP pistols.:confused:
Thank you...
Capkid
- If all goes well, I have another 1851 on hold-never had a matching set of pistols:D
 
did you get the brass frame model or steel frame? If its a brass, the 30grains might be alittle stiff. I shoot 20grs out of my brass navy and it groups nice. Others with more experience will chime in shortly.
 
As long as the balls/wads are seated on the powder you should be fine.
If you have to choose between having the ball down inside the cylinder or not seating it on the powder then you might want to use an inert filler, the corn meal, This goes in on top of the powder, below the wad, just to fill the space up.

The choice is between maybe a minor loss of accuracy & a blown up gun due to the powder detonating.

You really do need to cover or seal the nipple holes if you're leaving that cylinder loaded though, just one spark & .......................:eek:
 
Fire away!

The ball shouldn't be recessed 1/4 inch but will be ok to shoot.
The ball should be recessed only 1/8 inch or less.

You can fill above the powder with cream of wheat.
 
Balls are below rim of cycldr.-worst maybe 1/4-1/8"
Did I do something wrong? I researched how to load-something about corn meal?
Am I going to blow my hand off?
Click to expand...

You did absolutely nothing wrong,

You don't need cornmeal/grits/cream of wheat

You're not going to blow your hand off.

"a 1851 confd. navy colt relvr." would indicate a brass framed revolver. 30 grains of shockeys gold might be a little stout; but APP subs generally arent as stout as fffg BP. Even so, you might want to cut back on the powder.

My normal BP load for a steel framed .44 is 24 grains of fffg with lubed wad and .454 rb.

As long as you're not shooting bullseye competition or long range egg shoots, the ball to chamber mouth gap makes not one iota of difference in performance.
 
1st, don't worry about the extra cylinder space, as long as the wad and ball are seated tight to the powder, it will fire fine, I have no problem getting 2-4in groups at 25yds w/ 25gfff with a 1/4in chamber excess(Honest!). Personally, I would start with a light load (20g fff), and work my way up till I got an optimum grouping, then you'll know what she likes to eat!! Have fun and post a Range Report when you're done if you'd be so kind.
 
I got the idea from Gatofeo's sticky at the top of this forum, "So You Want a Cap and Ball Revolver."

He knows more about cap and ball pistols than I do.

The ball should be seated just slightly below flush of the chamber. If it is seated too far into the chamber, the ball has a long jump before it engages the rifling in the forcing cone. This long jump can affect accuracy.
 
It's pretty well documented that the closer the ball is to the end of the chamber the more accurate (and perhaps more importantly, consistent) the rounds will be. However, this is NOT a major effect. Many of us, myself included, can't shoot well enough to see a big difference; usually my own poor technique obviates the effort to add the extra filler, making it a bit of a waste of my time. But make no mistake, Gatofeo's advice is sound for people who can shoot accurately and who care about such things, wogpotter's claimed superior skills notwithstanding. Just because he doesn't feel the need for it doesn't mean it won't help someone else.
 
I'm sure glad that this forum exists. I have been shooting a modern .45ACP for years, however my buddy and I recently became interested in black powder shooting and we both bought the Cabela's 1851 Navy brass frame .44 CAL Revolver that I think is the same one mentioned by Capkid. Here's my dilenma. Cabela's booklet that came with the revolver recommends 25 grains of fffg black powder for the initial charge. Thefor b;a manufacturer's instructions that also came with the revolver recommends 15 to 16 grains of fffg black powder. That concerns me. What would you more experienced shooters recommend as a starting point? I've reloaded .45 ACP cartridges for years and in those manuals, they have a starting point and maximum grains however I don't see that information black powder. Obviuosly, I don't want to blow the gun up. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
wogpotter's claimed superior skills notwithstanding. Just because he doesn't feel the need for it doesn't mean it won't help someone else.
Click to expand...
There are absolutely no "claimed superior skills", just a target after 35 years away form last firing any kind of pistol.:eek:
th_andyctargets.jpg

1/8", or 1/4" Truly unimportant.
Both groups were fired at the same distance with the same load. ( 27 Gr FFg) the ball in both cases was loaded identically, about 1/4" below flush.

The ONLY difference was one was fired "duelist style" (one handed) the other was both hands.
Beginners luck perhaps????
Post a target before posting sarcasm I'd suggest.:D
 
Chris B, that's why I'm asking. When Cabela's says 25 grains and the manufacturer says 15 to 16 grains, I have to wonder who's correct. Does the manufacturer know something that Cabela's doesn't or vice versa? I'm thinking maybe because it's a brass frame as opposed to a steel frame. I don't know.
 
robhof

Cabela's is going by established loading guidlines and the maker is stating what their liability lawyers tell them to say.
 
That's exactly what I suspected. It's called "CYA" and it creates a lot of confussion fior we "newbies". So here's another question if you members don't mind. I have noted that black powder rated at fffg is recommended. Is the fffg system of rating used by all of the black powder makers or does it vary with each maker? Sounds like a dumb question but my shooting buddy insists that the potency varies between the different makers.
 
Black powder granules are separated as the final step in manufacturing, by using screens with a set hole-size.
My understanding is that this hole size of the screens was standardized well over 100 years ago and adopted by gun powder manufacturers around the world. If there is a difference between Metric and SAE-sized holes, it sure doesn't show up in the powder I've seen.
I've used gun (black) powder made in America, Mexico, Switzerland and what was likely Sweden or Norway (the can had minimal markings but was obviously some kind of Scandihoovian language).
While the Nordic powder didn't have an F-designation, it was clearly FFG grade. The kernels poured on a white card, next to Goex FFG, showed their grain size to be identical.

The Dixie Gun Works catalog has a wonderful section in the back of its catalog. It lists the Pass/No Pass openings of the screens, used to filter individual kernel sizes into grades.
For example, F granulation black powder kernels must pass through an opening .0689 but not .0582 inch.
Pass/No Pass screen openings for common small arms use are:

Passes Opening Not Pass
FG .0689 .0582
FFG .0582 .0376
FFFG .0376 .0170
FFFFG .0170 .0111

You may find differences between manufacturers, regarding the intended use of their black powder. Through the years I've seen FFG gun powder designated for pistol use. Yes, it can be used for pistols but FFFG is preferable, especially for pistol bores of .40 caliber or smaller.
But if it's all you can find, FFG will work in cap and ball pistols. FFFFG is intended more for the pans of flintlocks, being a very fine grade, but one can use it in the smaller calibers.
Accuracy is dependent upon far more factors than the size of the kernels you use, but FFFG is generally considered the best grade for all cap and ball revolvers and pistol cartridges, or cartridges of that size (.44-40 comes to mind).

In my "So You Want a Cap and Ball Revolver?" posting I did, indeed, write:

"The ball should be seated just slightly below flush of the chamber. If it is seated too far into the chamber, the ball has a long jump before it engages the rifling in the forcing cone. This long jump can affect accuracy."

Many believe this to be true (including myself), and some dispute it. The key is "can affect accuracy." Perhaps I should have written "may" instead, but years of shooting cap and ball revolvers have pretty much convinced me that the longer a ball has to travel, the greater the risk of deformity.

The piece I wrote is intended as a quick reference to cap and ball revolvers. Because each gun is an individual, results may vary. I wrote it in the spirit of setting people off on a generally accepted path.
I think it's succeeded at that, judging from the thankful comments I've received over the years.

There will always be exceptions, for reasons that may never fully be understood.
How a flat-faced wadcutter bullet seated flush with the cartridge's mouth can travel so far down a .38 Special or .357 Magnum chamber -- and still be so darned accurate -- remains a mystery to me.
And a bullet seated with its nose flush with the chamber mouth may not be nearly as accurate.

In the early days of gun powder, hundreds of years ago, many educated men believed that lead musket balls fired from smoothbore guns were inaccurate because of demons riding on the bullet.
Sometimes I wonder if more than a few demons have hitched a ride on bullets I've fired over the years ...
 
Netnarc & myself are the newbies with the questions. So if i understand the reply to his question correct , there is no difference in the powder companys as far as the powder measurements go ? If you use 25 grains of pyrodex -fffg (.44 cal - 1851 navy ) then you can use the same measurement in any of the other black powder brands? The only diff is how they may burn ? When it's all said and done i may turn my pistol in for a bow & arrow , at least i can't blow myself up. Thx, all for the info..
 
With one exception the black powder substitutes are designed to produce the same velocities as real black powder when measured by volume. That is, 30 gr by volume of Pyrodex P is closely equivalent to 30 gr by volume of fffg Goex black powder. The same is true of Pyrodex RS and ffg Goex.

That single exception is Triple Seven; it is approximately 15% 'hotter'/'stronger' than real black powder. Thus 30 gr by volume of fffg 777 is equivalent to about 34 gr by volume of fffg real black powder; the same is true of ffg - 30 gr/vol ffg 777 = 34 gr/vol ffg real black.

Further, the designation ffg/fffg implies a granule size that is consistently the same from brand to brand.

In general (777 excepted) the substitutes produce a slightly slower rising pressure curve and a bit higher peak pressure, but the differences are not great. This will, of course, result in different performance so if precise accuracy is desired one needs to rework the optimum load when changing from substitutes to real black or vice versa. For the most part, however, it's not a big issue.

However, the substitutes all have one significantly different characteristic from real black power - they have higher ignition temperatures. Real black powder will ignite at about 450 deg C, while most of the substitutes ignite in the 700-800 deg C range. This is important if you're shooting a flintlock; it means the substitutes are inconsistent in flintlocks, frequently not igniting from the spark shower.
 
Mykeal

Do you find that powders are relatively consistent from batch to batch?

By that I mean, does 22 grains of Triple Seven perform essentially the same given the same pistol, the same ball, the same cap etc., from one case to the next?
 
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