Help Identifying Possibly Live Shell
- Thread starter alanjaow
- Start date
InigoMontoya
New member
@briandg,
Well, given that it was pretty definitively IDed as an anti-aircraft shell, me thinks that chemical can be ruled right out.
Well, given that it was pretty definitively IDed as an anti-aircraft shell, me thinks that chemical can be ruled right out.
Agreed, it is almost definitely without a doubt an AAA shell.
There is something else to consider, though; the 90mm AAA was adapted to field artillery and antitank usage. The army may have loaded phosphorus, or smoke, into rounds meant for ground use. But, I see no reason to suspect mustard gas or other chemicals, that's what I was saying.
I can't find any comprehensive information about what modifications were done on that shell throughout the 40 or 50 years the system was in service.
otoh, it's also fairly certain that the 1942 was a production date, and I also doubt that we were loading gas rounds at that time. My history is rather weak in areas.
There is something else to consider, though; the 90mm AAA was adapted to field artillery and antitank usage. The army may have loaded phosphorus, or smoke, into rounds meant for ground use. But, I see no reason to suspect mustard gas or other chemicals, that's what I was saying.
I can't find any comprehensive information about what modifications were done on that shell throughout the 40 or 50 years the system was in service.
otoh, it's also fairly certain that the 1942 was a production date, and I also doubt that we were loading gas rounds at that time. My history is rather weak in areas.
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kraig, I eat my mother in law's cooking several times a year. Several times a year, I risk food poisoning that could put me in my grave.
I might be safer jumping out of planes or disarming artillery shells.
I hesitate to call anyone an idiot for taking that sort of gamble when I myself have eaten food from her kitchen.
this easter, I mostly just pushed her cooking around on my plate and ate a whole lot of the things I brought to the table personally. I also made sure to wash down every bite of her easter ham with a large shot of sterilizing beverages.
Regarding the "bomb" that is hidden in her crawlspace, come christmas, I'm going to be sorely tempted to go down there with a sawzall and an impact drill and see if it is a live munition or not.
Much safer than eating, I fear.
I might be safer jumping out of planes or disarming artillery shells.
I hesitate to call anyone an idiot for taking that sort of gamble when I myself have eaten food from her kitchen.
this easter, I mostly just pushed her cooking around on my plate and ate a whole lot of the things I brought to the table personally. I also made sure to wash down every bite of her easter ham with a large shot of sterilizing beverages.
Regarding the "bomb" that is hidden in her crawlspace, come christmas, I'm going to be sorely tempted to go down there with a sawzall and an impact drill and see if it is a live munition or not.
Much safer than eating, I fear.
i spent over 20 years in US Army EOD and another 25 years doing EOD/UXO work as a civilian. The thing in the nose is a not a "placeholder". Its an M48 or M51 point detonating fuze. The superquick detonator, flash tube and sheet metal ogive are missing. The selector is set on delay. There could be a live delay primer, flash pellet, detonator lead in and a big tetryl booster. Fuzes of this type are not used in anti-aircraft founds.
The fuze is on the left of the screen:
http://www.specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1315129
Here is a cutaway drawing of the fuze:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/ordnance/pg185.htm
The fuze is on the left of the screen:
http://www.specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1315129
Here is a cutaway drawing of the fuze:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/ordnance/pg185.htm
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I'm glad to see that we have a definitive answer now. thanks
I knew from the beginning that there was no reason for a storage plug to have that device in the side of the cone. From the information available on that page, that screw is the selector that sets instant fire or .005 seconds delay; it is set horizontally, meaning that it is set for delay. The fuse uses a nose located crush type instant detonator that is disabled by turning that selector key, (access to the main charge is blocked) and a base mounted inertial detonating delay fuse.
as it appears now, the sheet metal cone and instant detonator mechanism have been removed; this would have left the thing unable to fire on the instant mechanism but would have left the secondary mechanism armed. There is no indication that we can see that the secondary is disarmed.
I knew from the beginning that there was no reason for a storage plug to have that device in the side of the cone. From the information available on that page, that screw is the selector that sets instant fire or .005 seconds delay; it is set horizontally, meaning that it is set for delay. The fuse uses a nose located crush type instant detonator that is disabled by turning that selector key, (access to the main charge is blocked) and a base mounted inertial detonating delay fuse.
as it appears now, the sheet metal cone and instant detonator mechanism have been removed; this would have left the thing unable to fire on the instant mechanism but would have left the secondary mechanism armed. There is no indication that we can see that the secondary is disarmed.
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There was a lot of information witheld here.
Given a top view of the fuse assembly, the opening that the flash channel would have been visible, making it perfectly clear that it was a fuse assembly base, not a shipping plug.
Likewise, we haven't been shown the bottom, or base of the fuse assembly, and this would be essential to determine if the delay mechanism is intact.
IF the delay mechanism is still there, it is likely to still be armed. here is why I say that.
The person who prepared this round did so by just removing the instant fuse assembly and front nose cone.
We don't know if that person even knew about the delay fuse. if the delay fuse is still in the body, I am going to have to say that the fuse itself is still armed. According to the schematics, I can't see a way of removing the primer, delay charge, or actual detonating charge from the assembly after removing it from the fuse. If the deactivator followed his previous pattern, he would have removed the base mechanism completely, leaving only the inert steel base.
So, if the delayed mechanism is still there, it is very likely that the detonating charges are still intact. It would probably only be a few grams total. if the delay mechanism is missing, it is, in fact, definitely an inert round.
Given a top view of the fuse assembly, the opening that the flash channel would have been visible, making it perfectly clear that it was a fuse assembly base, not a shipping plug.
Likewise, we haven't been shown the bottom, or base of the fuse assembly, and this would be essential to determine if the delay mechanism is intact.
IF the delay mechanism is still there, it is likely to still be armed. here is why I say that.
The person who prepared this round did so by just removing the instant fuse assembly and front nose cone.
We don't know if that person even knew about the delay fuse. if the delay fuse is still in the body, I am going to have to say that the fuse itself is still armed. According to the schematics, I can't see a way of removing the primer, delay charge, or actual detonating charge from the assembly after removing it from the fuse. If the deactivator followed his previous pattern, he would have removed the base mechanism completely, leaving only the inert steel base.
So, if the delayed mechanism is still there, it is very likely that the detonating charges are still intact. It would probably only be a few grams total. if the delay mechanism is missing, it is, in fact, definitely an inert round.
The M48 and M51 fuzes are fitted with boosters. The booster contains a detonator that is out of alignment with the fuze explosive train. This prevents premature detonation of the round. At a safe distance from the gun the detonator in the booster aligns with the fuze detonator and primer and the tetryl booster pellet. The round will detonate when it impacts. When the fuzes is set for superquick action it always has a delay backup. The tetryl pellet can easily kill a person.
The original booster used with these fuzes was the M20. After WWII newer model boosters were used but the functioning is basically the same.
See page 402 for the M20 booster:
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM 9-1904 Ammunition Inspection Guide.pdf
The original booster used with these fuzes was the M20. After WWII newer model boosters were used but the functioning is basically the same.
See page 402 for the M20 booster:
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM 9-1904 Ammunition Inspection Guide.pdf
It's like that.
In about 1960 i helped investigate the death of a NC farmer who had kept a 155mm HE dud in the back of his 41 Chevrolet car for years. One day he hit a bump and it blew up. The car was recognizable by the front bumper and grill which were down the road about 75 yards from the site of the explosion.
I can only assume that he carried it around to show it to all of his pals for one reason or another.
As I've said in a whole lot of other posts, I'm a risk averse old man, there's no way in this world I'd own a possibly live piece of antique ordinance, especially a battlefield dud. I'd never drive around with it in my trunk.
OTOH, maybe putting it in my brother in laws trunk would be a possibility.
Here's a story that happened to a friend of mine. he did welding, and came up with the idea of storing his rods in pieces of 2 inch galvanized pipe, with both ends capped. His friend asked for some rods. the welder dropped the container of rods into the guys passenger seat. Whoever discovered this "pipe bomb" called in police, the county sheriff called in help, and the pipe was blown in place in the guy's truck.
Maybe that was a little overzealous. I think they could have dug a hole, safely removed it with rope, dragging it from a distance, then blown it in that pit. There was no real indication that it was a pipe bomb.
Right now, I have a few "pipe bombs" in my shop; I have a number of sections of pipe on hand because I always overestimate what I need when I'm working. Storing the caps and other fittings on the ends of the pipes is a way to keep them from being lost.