help: explain why Constitutional rights are given by God

Glock-A-Roo

New member
I was discussing the Emerson case with a good Christian woman I know. I mentioned that the Founders all agreed that Constitutional rights were given by God, not bequeathed by the state, and thus were not subject to retraction by the state.

She insisted that rights (as in 2nd amendment) should be able to be retracted in order to save someone's life, and
she challenged me to show any Scriptural basis for God-given rights. I was at a loss to come up with a rebuttal, but promised I would research it.

Can anyone here help? I'm not looking for "yeah, you're right!" replies, but links to philosophical and Christian treatises that reason out why our Constitutional rights come directly from God and not the state.

Thanks in advance.
 
I am afraid you have a tough time ahead of you there...

There were some enlightenment era philosophers (Voltaire comes to mind) that heavily influenced the framers of our constitution. These were not necesarily christian men by any means. They did, however, feel that every man had a rtight to his own life and the freedom of how he lived it. They felt that the usurping of that freedom was anathema to the human soul.

In Plato's Republic (WAY before the "enlightenment"), Socrates teaches that there are "Universal Truths" that should mankind put enough effort into that we can discover. These are truths about anything, but primarily philosophical truths.

These two schools of thought formed the basis for the justification of the declaration of independance.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Biblical support for this position is pretty darn vauge. The new testament concerns its self not with the issues of government but strictly with the issues of salvation and the soul. One of the only scriptures that talks about governement says "Give unot Caeser's what is Ceaser's and give unto the Lord what is the Lord's". This passage is indicative of what the early church taught concerning governments: If you live in a country, follow their laws.

Early christians never had the right to bear arms. The didnt have the right to freedom of assembly. They had no right to freedom of religion. They often didnt have the right to freedom of due process. Yet the bible and their leaders still encouraged them to submit to their governments.

Now this did begin to change with the rise of the Roman Catholic Church after the fall of Rome, but that was because the Roman Catholic Church WAS the governemnt in many cases. And believe you me, they trampled over EVERYONE's rights. As a matter of fact, the rise of the nation state was, in part, to counter the church's influence. The formation of the United States and the Bill of Rights wa ALSO to limit the power of ANY church in the government process. The colonists had seen all too well what a state church did to people of different faiths. The United States was made up of many religions who were persecuted at the hands of a state church.

Whew!

Got me going, eh?

Well... Like I said, I think you are going to have a tough time proving that the Bill of Rights has any biblical basis. Its mostly a secular concept that concerns itself with the limitation of the Federal Govt's ability to dictate to the states. Until fairly recently, BTW, most of the bill of rights could be suspended in a particular state by STATE law. Just not by Federal law.

J.T.

As usual, FWIW, IMHO, YMMV and all that
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She insisted that rights (as in 2nd amendment) should be able to be retracted in order to save someone's life[/quote]

You've got to be kidding me. Rights can be extinguished to save a live? She calls herself a Christian? Does she realise that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to protect Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happyness?

Tell her that in order to save her life, we are no longer going to allow her those 1st Amendment Rights (such as freedome to assemble peaceably to worship), this should be sufficient. ;)

------------------

~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998

[This message has been edited by USP45 (edited July 02, 2000).]
 
A timely post, Glock-a-Roo. I received an email from someone today who said he could not sign my petition to Bush because I made reference in it to "God-given rights" and "our Creator." My understanding is and always has been that the Framers understood that rights came from God and not from men.

Thanks, J.T., for the "enlightenment." I'll pass your comments along to my emailer.

Dick
Want to send Bush a message? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
The classical enlightenment position, as exemplified by John Locke, who was most influential in forming American constitutional ideas, was that man is neither a fully spiritual being (like an angel) nor a fully matterial being (like an animal), but partook of the characteristics of both angel and animal.
As an angel, man has the ability to reflect, to reason and to have moral awareness.
As an animal, man has the need for food, land from which to procure it, shelter and tools.
Human life is then composed of spiritual and material properties.
This is why in American constitutional language, life comes first and liberty and "persuit of happiness" follow after it. If the founders had adopted John Locke's actual wording in his philosophical works, they would have said "property" instead of "persuit of happiness", but if you read those works, you would understand that such a wording would have had revolutionary implications that founders were not willing to guarantee, unfortunately perhaps but perhaps wisely as well.
We know that no government gave us life and certainly did not give us a mind or a body. As these did not come from a government, no government has real juridiction over them. Our lives, our mind with inherent liberty and our bodies with its need for property came from somewhere else, a God or however you wish to envision this, but not from a govenment.
These ideas are not realy Biblical in origin, but begin to develope sometime after the Renaissance and the rebirth of philosophy and science in Europe after about 1400.
 
The idea that our rights come from God, or Nature, comes more from the 18th century than from the Bible.
Where you probably need to go with this to satisfy her is to talk about those places in which Jesus says that the individual has rights as against the group, and is responsible for his or her own decisions, such as to follow Jesus or not. What she's really saying is that the individual should give up his or her rights to make the group safer.
 
romans 9:21:
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
 
I know it's tacky to post three times in a row, but I just realized I was responding too narrowly to your question.

The real answer is that some rights are considered "inalienable", which means they cannot be given or signed away, such as your right to live. Other rights are alienable. I would argue that the RKBA is in the first category, since its purpose is to preserve life.
 
Turn it this way on her: the Constitution, esp. the Bill Of Rights, gives her the legal RIGHT to do what God REQUIRES.

Scripture requires the believer to spread the Word...and the BoR gives her the right to.

Scripture requires the believer to protect the lives of innocents...and the BoR gives her the right to do so.

Scripture requires the believer to not give quarter or assistance to evil...and the BoR gives her the right to not do so.

And so it goes for the rest of the Bill Of Rights. Scripture demands certain behavior of people, and the Constitution recognizes the _right_ of the individual to exercise those responsibilities, and restrains government from sinning against the individual. The counter-question to the individual in question is: how can she behave in a fully Christian fashion WITHOUT the government recognizing her RIGHT to act in certain ways required by God? Her only alternative to Constitutional rights would be to face persecution, jail, and death at the hands of the state for doing God's bidding.

The challenge is interesting and thought-provoking. By asking the question, she too MUST show a Scriptural basis for the absence of God-given rights...and with rights go God-given responsibilities; one must have the other.
 
I think if you read at the link I've provided you will find many referances about the right to defend yourself and others in the Bible.
There are many examples but the most obviouse is when Peter pulled his sword to defend Jesus. Peter, missing his mark, and cut one of their ears off. Jesus then told him to put his sword back in it's sheath. He didn't tell him to throw it away or get rid of it. He told him that now wasn't the time because He had to be taken captive and be hung on the cross as prophesy stated.
In order for Peter to have pulled his sword he would have had to have had it on him all the time. This was common practice because the sword was the gun of their day. Jesus never made a single comment about Peter carrying a sword in any of the gospels.
I could go on but the site below covers it all.
The Constitution is only a reaffirmation of rights already given to us by God.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcInfoBase.asp?CatID=81

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA

[This message has been edited by leedesert (edited July 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by leedesert (edited July 02, 2000).]
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Actually, Locke picked up his themes of unalienable rights from a Scottish Reformation minister named Samuel Rutherford (1600-1641), who in 1644 published a book called "Lex Rex" ("Law is King"). Rutherford based his concepts on the higher-law contained in the Bible's Ten Commandments and other laws contained in the book of Exodus and restated in the book of Deuteronomy. He worked backwards from the negatives in the Ten Commandments ("thou shall not kill" <that is: thou shall not murder> speaks of the right to life), etc. Conservative Presbyterian Biblical scholars still teach these principles.

Two people transmitted these ideas: The first, John Locke (1632-1704, drew heavily upon the Presbyterian Lex Rex concepts but secularized them. It's funny, but Locke's loss of the integrated Christian base of the Lex Rex concept is exactly what leads to valid questions like your own. Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) picked up the Les Rex ideas via John Locke.

The second primary transmitter of these concepts to the papers of our revolution was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and a member of the Continental Congresses of 1776-1779 and 1780-1782. He was none other than the first president of what is now Princeton University, Presbyterian pastor John Witherspoon (1723-1794). Witherspoon followed Lex Rex DIRECTLY and transmitted the concepts purely into several of the committees of Congress.

So, though the ideas were -secularized- in one form of transmission, they are straight out of the Bible. They came from a Christian mindset and were the product of a Christian consensus in the culture.

It was also via this same source that the concept of restraining the tyranny of democracy with a republic and a hard-to-modify law code based upon "higher law" was had. and Presbyterian government still follows them. If fact, the basic form of our country's government (constitutional republican democracy) is a modification of Presbyterian government (breaking the judicial and legislative branches apart).


Pheewww. Sorry for the length. Thought I'd try to set the record straight. Hope this helps!

[This message has been edited by Bobbalouie (edited July 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bobbalouie (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
'Scuse a born-again heathen who hasn't been reading the Bible lately, but wasn't there something to the effect of: "Let he who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." Or am I just having flashbacks? :D :D :D


------------------
The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...
 
swifter, it's in the Gospel of Luke.

It's too bad more people don't read the Bible, then less people would be brainwashed by it and the Kristians who wield it.

[This message has been edited by G50AE (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
Discuss, debate if necessary but keep it clean.
Denigrate or disparage and the sword will cut swift and sure.
If you have questions, e-mail me.
 
They're not. The were created in the common (judge-made) law of England and the colonies. They were formally granted/preserved, and codified in the B.O.R. The only "natural" law is what happens in the absence of enforced man-made law, and that is the law of the jungle. Observe history - all the enslavements of one people by another, etc. You may believe in some theoretical God-given right or rights, but they ain't worth a squirt of warm urine without the "teeth" of man-made laws, and their enforcers to enforce them. Again, look at slavery. I didn't really answer your question of the biblical basis for "God-given rights". I just wanted to point out that even if they exist, they're basically meaningless without men with weapons to enforce them.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
Futo, natural law may mean the law of the jungle in your mind, but that is not its meaning in the history of western philosophical and theological thought.
The people of the West were people of The Book, close to universally believing that God had made known to man his moral requirements though revelation in the Bible. This was Devine Law.
Unfortunately, the Bible is not overly specific about the forms of government, constitutions, everyday case law, etc.
Things had to be thought out by man with his god given brain as well.
Man could observe the matterial world and with his logic, could at least attemp to deduce the laws at work that reveled its workings. This is Natural Law. It is lower on the chain and more dubious than Drvine Law in the Western scheme of things.
Human Law was that made by men. To be valid, not just tyranny, it needed to be founded on man's best understanding of both Devine and Natural Law. It is the lowest of the three types of Law, but not to be sneezed upon.
It took several hundred years of serious moral and political thought to get to the point where the American Founding Fathers could summarize a politacl Bill of Rights so clearly in the document that they were actually in a position to put into practice.
I would note the Rennaisance as a nice neat point to begin a new direction in Western thought because the rediscovery of Greek texts after the fall of Constaninople (1453?) induceded a great explosion of activity in Western thought along the philosophical lines at the point.
There were plenty of people in Europe who could have wriiten a similar document to our Bill of Rights at the same time that ours was written and adopted, but they never got the chance to actually put it into practice.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited July 04, 2000).]
 
What he (Locke) was really doing in his Second Treatise on Civil Government (sic?) was intellectually killing the doctrine of the Divine Right of Kings that had existed for hundreds of years and upon which the Brtitish monarchy (as well as all others) was founded, in one way or another. It basically asserted that, in the divine hierarchy, then king's lineage was closer to God, or "higher up on the (at least spiritual/social) 'food chain'" than the common man. The common man, therefore, was born into a state of subjectivity, if not servitude, and had no rights beyond what the monarch granted.

The truth was that the monarchs were the monarchs in the first place because they, like Alpha predators, amassed the most strength after leading and conquering. Talk about the law of the jungle.

Locke's assertion was basically that while some men may be born into more economic or social advantage/power than others, all men--just like all animals, really--are born with certain rights that are not subject to any other man's discretion (all men created equal, in other words)--until we infringe on another's natural right. So we all have a right to life, which means we have a right to defend ourselves to preserve our life; we all have a right to liberty--to be free from regulation or control so long as we don't intrude on another's attempt to be free from regulation or control; to make our own way so long as we don't...etc.

Basically, Locke was saying that the British system was bogus.

Which is why the Constitution granted such limited power to the government, why the Declaration points out that the only valid purpose of government law is to secure (protect) those rights, and why it points out in the 10th Amendment that anything not granted there was pretty much reserved for the people, or the states. And why the BoR documents the rights of man, but doesn't grant them.
 
We are really getting very good responses here to the developement of Western thought toward the limits of government and I find them all interesting. They are all relevent to understanding why the framers and approvers of the Bill of Rights were able to come rather quickly to some consensus on these matters by the date of 1791 when it was adopted by the truely new government of the United States.
Just to get back to the original question of why do many people say that our rights come from God, not a government piece of paper:
By at least the 1600's, a large body of Europen thought and scholarship had swung to the position that since government of whatever brand did not give us our life, neither our minds nor or our bodies, government had limited legitimate jurisdiction over it. Our lives and thus our rights came from somewhere else, from God or whatever, but definitly not from the government.
And this is in complete compatibility with the original biblical notion of God as the maker of man, somehow in His Own Image.
A pretty good intellectual achievement that was in full flower by about the time of John Locke in the 1600's and commonly accepted by the educated by the 1700's.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited July 04, 2000).]
 
Jesus started a "give up your rights movement." However, we have the good fortune to be in a country with a Constitution that recognises the right of individuals to self defense. The Old Testament law "You shall not kill" assumes the right to life. Similar to the Law, "You shall not steal." This assumes the right to ownership.
When we bear arms, we are obeying the command in Romans 13:1, "Let every soul be subject unto the hight powers..." Where we run into a dilemma is that now we have rulers who are opposed to some of the Constitution.

------------------
Alexander Solzhenitzyn:
"Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility."
 
One little pet peave of this is the line, "shall not kill". The actual translation is, "shall not murder", if i understand it correctly.

It does make a difference.



------------------

~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Back
Top