Help analyzing the wife's shooting.
- Thread starter ProxyBoy
- Start date
She is Assisting the weapon!
It was already stated above but ill say it. she is trying to reduce the recoil by pushing forward like that wanted movie she want to believe that she can shortcut a result! have her bend forward in combat stance moving the recoil retention into the larger deltoid mass.
It was already stated above but ill say it. she is trying to reduce the recoil by pushing forward like that wanted movie she want to believe that she can shortcut a result! have her bend forward in combat stance moving the recoil retention into the larger deltoid mass.
My wife was doing the same thing when she was shooting my Ruger P89. Everything was in the dirt. I got up real close and noticed the muzzle dropping as she shot. She wasn't doing what was stated above(anticipting the recoil), she was squeezing her whole hand as she squeezed the trigger. So the muzzle was dropping as the trigger was pulled. Once we figured that out, she does pretty good now.
Lost Sheep
New member
Master of two arts
Proxyboy (and wife).
Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice.
One who would teach another how to do something must be the master of two arts (or skills, if you prefer).
One must be competent at that which is to be taught
One must be competent at the art of teaching.
There is another aspect of teaching a relative or spouse. There are interpersonal dynamics which everyone has. No one can avoid their effects, no matter how competent a teacher and how diligent a student. (For the same kind of reasons, a two-parent household is better than a one-parent household.) Not that it can't be done, and done well. It is just more complex. But the conventional wisdom is "Never try to teach your spouse how to drive."
Some skills are best learned while being observed by a coach. I suggest you might want to take a class together. Check you ego at the door, though, or take separate classes. (Just my advice. Other's experiences may generate different advice.)
Good Luck. Good shooting.
Lost Sheep
Proxyboy (and wife).
Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice.
One who would teach another how to do something must be the master of two arts (or skills, if you prefer).
One must be competent at that which is to be taught
One must be competent at the art of teaching.
There is another aspect of teaching a relative or spouse. There are interpersonal dynamics which everyone has. No one can avoid their effects, no matter how competent a teacher and how diligent a student. (For the same kind of reasons, a two-parent household is better than a one-parent household.) Not that it can't be done, and done well. It is just more complex. But the conventional wisdom is "Never try to teach your spouse how to drive."
Some skills are best learned while being observed by a coach. I suggest you might want to take a class together. Check you ego at the door, though, or take separate classes. (Just my advice. Other's experiences may generate different advice.)
Good Luck. Good shooting.
Lost Sheep
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Man, you guys are something else. I've tried to be patient with the lack of understanding, assuming I wasn't making myself clear... but after attempting to clear that up several times I just don't even know. This does not apply to fATAL and wpcexpert.
Let me cover the crazy misunderstandings up... again.
1.) It's her gun and she has put over 500 rounds through it... she LOVES shooting and has shot more than I do. Nothing will stop her from wanting to go shoot. I'm very lucky and know how lucky I am. She has always enjoyed guns and I have ZERO problems buying more guns or Ammo... hell, I bought her some ammo for xmas last year! She was very pleased.
2.) We just forgot our targets and used a box because shooting a box is better than not shooting at all right? I plan on making some real targets and have saved some free downloaded targets to print out and use.
3.) I KNOW I have no ability to teach her... I wouldn't be on here asking for help if I thought I was good enough to teach her. I'd just like to try and help her figure out what she is doing wrong and bring her shots in about 10' From there we can enjoy shooting more and each fine tune our shots and technique... probably with help from a pro at some point.
4.) continuing 3 essentially... I have NO delusions that I am a "good" shot. I simply said that I was impressed that I did so well my FIRST time shooting a pistol. It amazes me that some how you guys have taken a first time shooter that happened to hit 12-15" groupings at 25 yards with his first magazine into "you can't shoot worth a crap and you should be shooting 5" groupings at that distance!" Truly amazing that you guys would say that.
Well, I think I covered enough... I also think I have realized that the "experts" here have a lot of their own advice to take... they certainly are FAR from any sort of teachers and can't seem to follow their own advice.
Make no mistakes I appreciate all of the critiques and suggestions... but why continue to harp on things that have already been acknowledged and agreed to? I understand saying "I agree, you guys should look into professional instructions" But that is where that should stop since I've acknowledged that. At that point if you want to contribute to the thread then follow up with... BUT it sounds like she is doing X, Y or Z. Not going on for a few paragraphs on how we are doing it all wrong.
Again, no disrespect meant, I am just having to force myself to actually reading the post hoping there will be something to gain and not just the same thing already addressed, I know... I'm repeating myself now (gets old, hearing the same thing over and over huh?)
Definitely no disrespect meant to those few that actually posted up some info and insight into what she might be doing. I know I can't teach her everything as I essentially know nothing, but I would imagine that I could get her hitting the broad side of a barn! HA!
Let me cover the crazy misunderstandings up... again.
1.) It's her gun and she has put over 500 rounds through it... she LOVES shooting and has shot more than I do. Nothing will stop her from wanting to go shoot. I'm very lucky and know how lucky I am. She has always enjoyed guns and I have ZERO problems buying more guns or Ammo... hell, I bought her some ammo for xmas last year! She was very pleased.
2.) We just forgot our targets and used a box because shooting a box is better than not shooting at all right? I plan on making some real targets and have saved some free downloaded targets to print out and use.
3.) I KNOW I have no ability to teach her... I wouldn't be on here asking for help if I thought I was good enough to teach her. I'd just like to try and help her figure out what she is doing wrong and bring her shots in about 10' From there we can enjoy shooting more and each fine tune our shots and technique... probably with help from a pro at some point.
4.) continuing 3 essentially... I have NO delusions that I am a "good" shot. I simply said that I was impressed that I did so well my FIRST time shooting a pistol. It amazes me that some how you guys have taken a first time shooter that happened to hit 12-15" groupings at 25 yards with his first magazine into "you can't shoot worth a crap and you should be shooting 5" groupings at that distance!" Truly amazing that you guys would say that.
Well, I think I covered enough... I also think I have realized that the "experts" here have a lot of their own advice to take... they certainly are FAR from any sort of teachers and can't seem to follow their own advice.
Make no mistakes I appreciate all of the critiques and suggestions... but why continue to harp on things that have already been acknowledged and agreed to? I understand saying "I agree, you guys should look into professional instructions" But that is where that should stop since I've acknowledged that. At that point if you want to contribute to the thread then follow up with... BUT it sounds like she is doing X, Y or Z. Not going on for a few paragraphs on how we are doing it all wrong.
Again, no disrespect meant, I am just having to force myself to actually reading the post hoping there will be something to gain and not just the same thing already addressed, I know... I'm repeating myself now (gets old, hearing the same thing over and over huh?)
Definitely no disrespect meant to those few that actually posted up some info and insight into what she might be doing. I know I can't teach her everything as I essentially know nothing, but I would imagine that I could get her hitting the broad side of a barn! HA!
Yes I did Pax... it looked to have a LOT of good info and I plan on reading it thoroughly... I just haven't had the time yet... been working non-stop this entire week, I haven't even brought my laptop in from the car at night it's been so busy.
Thanks you for your post it was also helpful.
Thanks you for your post it was also helpful.
coltaholic
New member
teaching
THE PROBLEM WITH SHOOTING IS EVERYBODY THINKS THEY CAN DO IT!
I teach a course at my gun club for kids and newcomers, and when we finish the first 1/2 hour, most students are hitting a 2" bullseye at 15ft with a 1911 .45.
Flinching is the typical newcomer's problem, if they've had a little experience. It's one of the hardest bad habits to break.
You wouldn't give driving lessons to someone who kept hitting things with the car without seeking professional help
So get professional help. her bad habit will only intensify unless she takes positive steps to cure it. Being ignorant of how to correct this doesn't make you a bad guy, or mean you mother had character problems, it just means this is an area outside of your expertise. A pro can diagnose her problem, help her cure it, and the end result will be that she has a lot more fun, is a lot better at shooting, and you can learn a little as well.
Good luck and God Bless.
THE PROBLEM WITH SHOOTING IS EVERYBODY THINKS THEY CAN DO IT!
I teach a course at my gun club for kids and newcomers, and when we finish the first 1/2 hour, most students are hitting a 2" bullseye at 15ft with a 1911 .45.
Flinching is the typical newcomer's problem, if they've had a little experience. It's one of the hardest bad habits to break.
You wouldn't give driving lessons to someone who kept hitting things with the car without seeking professional help
So get professional help. her bad habit will only intensify unless she takes positive steps to cure it. Being ignorant of how to correct this doesn't make you a bad guy, or mean you mother had character problems, it just means this is an area outside of your expertise. A pro can diagnose her problem, help her cure it, and the end result will be that she has a lot more fun, is a lot better at shooting, and you can learn a little as well.
Good luck and God Bless.
Pax and her Cornered Cat website are probably two of your best resources. Gunhilda will be one of your more amusing resources.
I would say getting a real genuine human with good shooting experience is also high on the helpfulness scale. I'm fortunate I have a former Marine and LEO as a resource for shooting (he's the one that swears by lasers as a good training aid - he can watch the dot as one shoots to help diagnose shooting errors), as well as other shooting friends.
Just make sure the person actually know what they are doing and can teach - an NRA or police instructor, something like that. Your local gun shop is a good place to get names of such people. Remember:
I would say getting a real genuine human with good shooting experience is also high on the helpfulness scale. I'm fortunate I have a former Marine and LEO as a resource for shooting (he's the one that swears by lasers as a good training aid - he can watch the dot as one shoots to help diagnose shooting errors), as well as other shooting friends.
Just make sure the person actually know what they are doing and can teach - an NRA or police instructor, something like that. Your local gun shop is a good place to get names of such people. Remember:
- Just because someone has shot a long time doesn't mean they necessarily have good practices
- Just because someone has shot a long time and have good practices doesn't mean they necessarily can teach those practices to others
- Teaching is a talent, usually worth paying for
Misssissippi Dave
New member
An easy way to get some good use out of dry firing at home is to use a laser. This way the shooter can use the sights to dry fire and the observer can can watch the laser to see what is happening right at the time of the trigger break as well as the follow up. The observer can tell the shooter what they have seen and they can work on correcting the problems. I like using snap caps to protect the firing pin for dry firing. You might even set the laser to be zeroed in about 2" low so the shooter won't be distracted by the dot. Use something small as the target to make it more challenging. Keeping fairly steady all the way through the trigger pull is an art that takes time to learn to do. Some shooters never do learn to do it, but still enjoy shooting.
Since there are two of you you can take turns being the shooter. The results after this kind of practice can be quite helpful. The laser can be a very cheap one. Some fit in the trigger guard and others on the rail if the pistol has one. You should be able to find them selling for 15 to 25 dollars. They are not all that easy to zero in either. Since you are looking more for something for the observer to see and not the shooter does it really matter that much on how close it is to the point of impact?
Adjusting your grip and the way the trigger is pulled will the things that will keep you on target in many cases.
Since there are two of you you can take turns being the shooter. The results after this kind of practice can be quite helpful. The laser can be a very cheap one. Some fit in the trigger guard and others on the rail if the pistol has one. You should be able to find them selling for 15 to 25 dollars. They are not all that easy to zero in either. Since you are looking more for something for the observer to see and not the shooter does it really matter that much on how close it is to the point of impact?
Adjusting your grip and the way the trigger is pulled will the things that will keep you on target in many cases.
Thanks for the pointers... I might see about strapping on a regular laser pointer for the dry firing practice mentioned above.
Most modern guns can handle dry firing from what I've read. I do have an older Llama 380 that I can attest should NOT be dry fired (broke the firing pin already on it.
)
Most modern guns can handle dry firing from what I've read. I do have an older Llama 380 that I can attest should NOT be dry fired (broke the firing pin already on it.
)This is true; and many modern handguns Must be dry-fired in order to disassemble them. It's really not such a big deal anymore.
I think a good summary of some points here are these:
1. You can point out small things to your wife, but teaching a wife is a very difficult endeavour. So if you're thinking of learning in order to teach her, it'd be better to bring her along for the learning.
2. It DOES sound like a flinch, which is often quite hard to fix. If you need to convince HER that that's what it is, then you can give her a malfunction drill:
a. Load a magazine with a few live rounds, add a Snap-Cap, then load it to capacity.
b. Load the weapon and tell her to fire though the magazine, trying to aim properly, and pay attention to how much she's moving the gun (which really shouldn't be any at all).
c. When she gets through the first few rounds, she'll start flinching. When that snap cap shows up, it'll be impossible to miss, and she'll know she's doing it.
3. Watch how she pulls the trigger. If she's slapping it back in a single motion, this could be causing a low impact, and could be a result of her "flinch".
4. Calm down a little bit.
Your whole last post was very defensive, and I can't help but feel that you took offense to a number of posts that, in re-reading, were quite benign and informative. For just a single reference, JohnKSa, who is a very respected member here was not at all offensive, and I have a lot of trouble understanding how you turned this helpful piece of advice:
into this:
He didn't say that "You can't shoot worth a crap and you should be shooting 5" groupings at that distance". He said that your gun (that specific make, model, and caliber, in the hands of an expert or on a dead rest is capable of making a 5" grouping. The fact that her "patterns" were no where near what an average shooter could do at that range begs the question, "If the gun is in good working order and can do that, what is going on to pull her sights off target?" THEN he went on to provide you with a recommendation. Thank you JohnKSa.
I can't help but feel like you're taking a lot of offense that isn't intended or warranted. We are all simply here to help. And when a multitude of people return with the same (or similar) answers to your problem, then the response from you should NOT be to tell them how little they are contributing, but rather to take a step back and look at it statistically. You asked a question. Now, what is the most in depth answer? Got it? Okay, now what was the answer MOST GIVEN? Those are going to be your 2 most helpful tools.
Just take it easy. We're all friends here. No one is slinging mud.
~LT
I definitely wasn't trying to tell you that you did poorly, I was specifically responding to your question about why someone would suggest that there was a problem (i.e. room for improvement) with your shooting.
You did well for your experience level, but that wasn't what was under discussion. Pax mentioned that you were probably flinching and you asked why she said that. I was simply explaining how she reached that conclusion, not denigrating your shooting ability.
Just to make it clear, I've been shooting for several decades and I'm still finding ways to improve. I'm still finding things I'm doing wrong or things I could be doing better.
It's a good thing to feel good about shooting accomplishments, but it's also a good thing to realize there's room for improvement. Both things are very constructive.
For example, last weekend I broke 4 seconds for the first time in my life on a plate run. I'm very happy with the accomplishment but I realize that I still have a lot of work to do and a lot of room for improvement. It was a very fast time for me, but there are many folks who can shoot a lot faster than that. So while I'm very happy about shooting a personal best and I'm definitely going to enjoy the feeling, I'm not going to take the attitude that I can't do better or that I shouldn't try to do better.
Nor would I feel badly if someone offered me suggestions for why I'm not doing as well as I could or ways to improve.
You did well for your experience level, but that wasn't what was under discussion. Pax mentioned that you were probably flinching and you asked why she said that. I was simply explaining how she reached that conclusion, not denigrating your shooting ability.
Just to make it clear, I've been shooting for several decades and I'm still finding ways to improve. I'm still finding things I'm doing wrong or things I could be doing better.
It's a good thing to feel good about shooting accomplishments, but it's also a good thing to realize there's room for improvement. Both things are very constructive.
For example, last weekend I broke 4 seconds for the first time in my life on a plate run. I'm very happy with the accomplishment but I realize that I still have a lot of work to do and a lot of room for improvement. It was a very fast time for me, but there are many folks who can shoot a lot faster than that. So while I'm very happy about shooting a personal best and I'm definitely going to enjoy the feeling, I'm not going to take the attitude that I can't do better or that I shouldn't try to do better.
Nor would I feel badly if someone offered me suggestions for why I'm not doing as well as I could or ways to improve.
LordTio3, You are correct. I relooked at everything and I think what happened with JohnkSa, is that I mixed him and pax's post together. He responded to what I asked about what pax had said and I assumed it was the same person that originally said it. If you put those two together it sounds a little more offensive. I guess it could have been better stated with "though you did well, it is suggested that you are flinching because that gun can do...."
I agree that I could have received the post better but I will also say that these post could have been better stated with "here is my take on what is going on ... but I do also agree with what others have said, some professional instructions would be your best bet on improvement." Because I completely agree with what they were saying... but the point of being here was to try and figure out how come she couldn't hit the side of a barn. I know a professional could fix all of her problems but I'd also think our time/money would be better put to use working on finer points vs flinching or something really dumb that is causing her to miss by such a large margin.
I did get a few PM's from people that did agree that some of these post weren't very constructive and just critical, so I don't think I was completely off base with some of my concerns.
LordTio3, your post was a lot more constructive and yet still critical... I can handle that no problem. I like the idea of No. 2.
JohnKsa, I'm sorry I took your post incorrectly. Trust me, I understand... you ALWAYS can improve on your game, no matter what it is.
I agree that I could have received the post better but I will also say that these post could have been better stated with "here is my take on what is going on ... but I do also agree with what others have said, some professional instructions would be your best bet on improvement." Because I completely agree with what they were saying... but the point of being here was to try and figure out how come she couldn't hit the side of a barn. I know a professional could fix all of her problems but I'd also think our time/money would be better put to use working on finer points vs flinching or something really dumb that is causing her to miss by such a large margin.
I did get a few PM's from people that did agree that some of these post weren't very constructive and just critical, so I don't think I was completely off base with some of my concerns.
LordTio3, your post was a lot more constructive and yet still critical... I can handle that no problem. I like the idea of No. 2.
JohnKsa, I'm sorry I took your post incorrectly. Trust me, I understand... you ALWAYS can improve on your game, no matter what it is.
AwlArtist: If you made your own holster, it's a rule you have to post pics.
The Colt New Frontier is a great gun. No matter how great the gun, it's the shooter that makes the difference.
There are likely classes near you that cater to women shooters. It would be a good idea to check one out.
ProxyBoy: It is the nature of internet forums that the posts become repetitive and or miss changes in the thrust of the thread.
But the basic comments are sound. Get instruction, flinching seems to be the problem, and taking up the "slack" in a trigger is bad practice.
My own two bits is that you should get a .22. A Ruger MK., a Browning Buckmark, or a Beretta Neo would be great choices. Let you wife pick which one she likes.
The Colt New Frontier is a great gun. No matter how great the gun, it's the shooter that makes the difference.
There are likely classes near you that cater to women shooters. It would be a good idea to check one out.
ProxyBoy: It is the nature of internet forums that the posts become repetitive and or miss changes in the thrust of the thread.
But the basic comments are sound. Get instruction, flinching seems to be the problem, and taking up the "slack" in a trigger is bad practice.
My own two bits is that you should get a .22. A Ruger MK., a Browning Buckmark, or a Beretta Neo would be great choices. Let you wife pick which one she likes.
Hmm, even my brand new XDm has almost a 1/4" of travel before it "hits" something and becomes a good bit tougher for that last 1/4" before the trigger breaks.
I don't know the nomenclature to explain myself very well, but I'd say it takes about 1lb to pull through the first 1/4" then maybe 5lb to get to the last 1/4".
This isn't like loose play. I just assumed I should be bringing the trigger back to that first point where the pressure needed to move the trigger changes then from there one nice steady pull till it breaks. It seems like if it's easy to feel then 1/4" to break the trigger is easier to keep clean than 1/2".
I don't know the nomenclature to explain myself very well, but I'd say it takes about 1lb to pull through the first 1/4" then maybe 5lb to get to the last 1/4".
This isn't like loose play. I just assumed I should be bringing the trigger back to that first point where the pressure needed to move the trigger changes then from there one nice steady pull till it breaks. It seems like if it's easy to feel then 1/4" to break the trigger is easier to keep clean than 1/2".
That's a typical two stage trigger. There's some takeup initially and then it gets harder to pull to actually fire the pistol.
In some designs that takeup is unavoidable and actually does some or all of the work of cocking the firearm and/or disables passive safeties.
In some it's actually designed into the trigger pull as a safety feature even though it doesn't have to be there in those designs.
In some designs it's there because the manufacturer didn't take the time to eliminate it although they could have if they had taken the time/money to make it so.
In some designs that takeup is unavoidable and actually does some or all of the work of cocking the firearm and/or disables passive safeties.
In some it's actually designed into the trigger pull as a safety feature even though it doesn't have to be there in those designs.
In some designs it's there because the manufacturer didn't take the time to eliminate it although they could have if they had taken the time/money to make it so.