Help! 44 leading!

M

MeekAndMild

New member
Help! What is the slowest burning, lightest load of powder I can use in a Blackhawk either 44 special or 44 mag brass, to cut down on leading for practice loads? Also, does Lee style liquid lubricant cut it down?

I tried 6.9 grains of 800X today which was so slow we could see the bullets going downrange but still got moderate leading.
 
M&M,

You didn't mention the bullet weight, but my Lyman manual shows no loads any where near that light for 44 Mag!

That could also be part of your leading problem, as the bullet is probably not expanding to seal the bore, so the blowby of hot gas may be melting the sharp corner at the rear of the bullets.

I don't necessarily support that theory, but wiser men than I swear that happens. :)

My 45 Colt Blackhawk had severe leading problems with the first brand of cast bullets I bought (local product), so I switched to Oregon Trail bullets, and now use them exclusively in all my handguns, with no leading problems at all. Velocities range from 690 fps in 38 Special, to 1350 fps in the 45 Colt.

They will send you free samples, just for the asking. Check their prices at the following url. I think you will like their bullets. :D

http://www.laser-cast.com/

Bill (USAF retired)
 
I had the same problem with laser-cast bullets. I started making my own and the leading problem became non-existant. I think the laser-cast bullets were too hard or the crappy commercial lube just sucked.
 
Bill,
You have correctly discribed what 'has' happened if the lead is worse in the cone area as opposed to the end of the muzzle.
IMR 800X is not the best powder selection either. I am interested to hear which components he is using.
Don Mallard
 
You didn't mention the bullet weight, but my Lyman manual shows no loads any where near that light for 44 Mag!
Click to expand...
IMR 800X is not the best powder selection either. I am interested to hear which components he is using.
Click to expand...

Magnus 215 gr hard cast pre lubed bullets using 6.9 gr of 800x in Magtech 44 special brass driven by CCI primers. I have some 44 mag brass but don't want to use it until I get the lead probs figured out. The loading manuals show significantly higher powder amounts for 44 mag.

Where is the lead build up the worse----near the cone or end of barrel?
Click to expand...

Forcing cones and butt end 1/3 of barrel.
 
Brasso,

That's very interesting.

Have you slugged the bore in your gun(s)?

I've read that an oversize bore may seal better with softer lead bullets than Laser cast, but generally at lower velocities. Laser cast will obdurate at 13,000 psi and above, according to their reloading manual. That is pretty low pressure even for the 45 Colt. Some of the older cartridges operate at lower pressures, but even that is no problem if the bullets are sized properly.

If bullets are sized properly, there is no need for the bullet to obdurate, and there should be no leading at any reasonable velocity.

I've slugged all of my bores to make sure I'm not shooting undersize bullets, which is just an invitation to leading.

Bill
 
Sam,

Your right, I forgot to mention that chamber mouth diameter, and forcing cone condition, are also important.

I wonder if poor timing may also contribute to leading, as the shaved lead would tend to melt pretty quickly?

Bill
 
Bill......agree, timing will do it too.

You any kin to Jim Adair, barrelmaker out of Roseburg Ore in the 50s ?

Sam.....nosey ol fart.
 
I've never slugged the bore. After I started casting my own using ww, the problem went away so I never worried about it. The mould is an NEI SWC/GC. They drop out at 285gr. I size/lubricate them at .430. If I did my research correctly, a bullet as hard as the laser-cast (around 22 BHN) requires about 32k psi to obturate correctly. Maybe I am not understanding correctly.
 
Meek and Mild,
I suggest that when approaching 'handloaded' ammo for accurate target work that you take into consideration the many variables which 'you-will' encounter. You have some factual and mature information in this thread even now............

*Keep an openmind*

If you are a shooter-by that I mean serious effort(s) on your part-then you need to turn your hat around backwards and dive into the 'well' of information which will ultimately yield the results you are seeking.

First-have you slugged your barrel?
Have you checked the diameters of each cylinder?
Do you know 'if' your revolver is in time or not?

Choose the components which have a reputation-with seasoned handgunners who load their own ammo............
I know R-P or Winchester has excellent 44 special brass---for instance.
The powder you mentioned is slow burning for 44 special ammo.
As a matter of fact it is in the burn rate class with Blue-Dot or even 2400.
Your request -concerning 'A' powder to be ".....slow burning and light load"
That -'IN GENERAL' should be a relatively fast burning powder with a light charge(of it).
Before I offer my suggestion, which is based on my experience with 44 cal, allow me to state that I always take each and every gun down after a shooting session-----for revolvers, the side plate comes off and all internal parts are cleaned---------(or the grip frame and innards with my Rugers)
Therefore I have not even a 'minute' interest if a particular powder is clean or dirty when shot--------------
I am a utilitarian-firearms wise----------
Use R-P or Winchester cases
Use large pistol standard primers(any brand)
Use Unique powder---7.0 grns to start
You can choose the bullet much better after you have slugged the barrel. OR take my suggestion------------
SPEER: offers a .430 Lead bullet--240grn(which should yield good accuracy 'IF' that diameter suits your particular bore
Wideners at www.wideners.com sells them
They also offer a 'generic' hard cast 240 grn which is .430
Midway at www.midwayusa.com offers a .430 240 grn
D&J brand
There is a company GeorgiaPrecision----at ----www.georgiaprecision.com who offers a excellent 44 slug-----Ranger is the brand (actually Bull-X material and specs) and it is a hard cast .429 -240 grns SWC for around $42@1000
www.dillionprecision.com will put you in contact with a favorite of mine The most excellent Meister brand.
A .429 diameter hard cast 240 grn SWC .
You did not mention if you would entertain the idea of a jacketed or plated(in this case) projectile.
Midway sells a Electroplated (copper) lead .429 diameter slug in two weights and two shapes.
Those are good for low to medium velocities.

I am going to stick my neck out a little bit and say that your fine Ruger is not out of time and that the cylinders are within specs.
When you have a top shelf gun -such as yours- you will not find many of them that have left Bill's shop being out of specs.
I will go further and say to try the Meister bullet.
And by the way--you can obtain a Meister Hard cast 44 mag Truncated cone 300 grn-.429 diameter bullet which I will--from experience-- stack up with anybodies 300 gr hunting bullet-------but for now I stand ready to assist you until you get it right.
I have lots of patience and have picked up on some useful information 'so-far' in this 'handgunners' life.
Don Mallard
 
Sam,

Funny you should ask, as I've just begun to look into my families history, and immediately found a cousin, and a line of the family that I didn't know existed! He sent me loads of genealogy material, which I have just begun to read.

Suspect there could be relatives of mine in Oregon, but I haven't gotten that far in my search. :)

Brasso,

I'm certainly no expert, but according to the Oregon Trail Reloading Manual, their bullets obturate at much lower pressure?

Don Mallard,

Mighty fine message!

I've tried less than a dozen different brands of cast bullets over the years, and saw some degree of leading with most of them. Not so with Oregon Trail, and I use them in everything from 9X18 to 45 Colt.

Occasionally, I'll try other brands in different weights to fine tune POI on fixed sight guns, or experiment with something new, but OT is my main source.

Now, if I can only talk OT into producing .475 bullets for the Ruger 480! :D

Bill
 
It won't take you very long to test the reliable handloads which have been around much longer than most of us.
I don't deliberately rain on anyones parade---BUT---if you venture off into casting your own then you will be in deep water!
That will mean that you will search all over the place from commercial shooter' supplys to newspaper offices to your local plummer---all to obtain the 'just-right' combination of tin-lead, anatomy and so on! Why you might even resort to buying your own 'pressure-crusher-tester' to make absolutely sure that your hand cast bullets are absolutely 'impeccable' AND especially if you are a impecunious ---person.
You will find the miracle formula and after you have nearly burned the house down a couple of times you will get your pot melter temperature set 'just-right'...........then you will dip your fresh moulded bullets into cold water to 'quinch' them-----oh how impressed all your shooting buddies will be with your new found bullet making talents!
Then, of course, you will need to label each batch and date them--since everybody just knows how the hardness of the homebrew bullets 'changes' after a few days---------so you see .
Now just look at the can of worms you have opened up!
You just let me know how far you want to go with this.......
There is no end my friend!
I had State money to spend for 30 years---on this type of stuff.
I never 'saw' the end of it all much less got there!
So just buy you a few of the brands which we all mentioned to you.
Unique has been a faithful, good performing powder for, gee, many, many decades.
The 44 special is absolutely one of the most fun calibers there is.
Even at 900 or so fps it is a excellent man stopper.
Just call and we will help you out.
Don Mallard
 
More questions:

Do gas checks help?

How about the Lee style liquid lube?

Is crimping tightness a factor?

With the light loads of fast powder is a cotton wadding to keep the powder at the primer end helpful?

There is no end my friend!
Click to expand...

Hey, this is a hobby! Like to get off in the garage away from the boss a couple of hours every now and then
 
SUGGESTIONS

1) Fire 100--1,000,000 rds with jacketed bullets.

2) Fire at least one hundred more.

3) Try Beartooth and Cast Performance GC bullets at high velocity.

4) Use Hodgdon Cowboy data and Beartooth/Cast Performance/Laser-Cast bullets.

5) Accept some leading.

6) [TOP SECRET] Use a Kleen-Bore cloth, cut a patch, clean bore with it, re-clean conventionally, re-clean again, try your lead-bullet load(s).

7) Try swaged bullets.

------------------------------------------------------

ANSWERS TO MORE QUESTIONS

a) Gas check CAN help, but not always.

b) LEE lube - see above.

c) Crimp affects many things; finish your loads with a fairly heavy crimp using a REDDING Profile Crimp die.

d) Forget the wadding; use TiteGroup.
 
Don,

Many times I've thought it might be fun to cast my own bullets, but after reading about all the variables that contribute to bullet consistency, I decided to let the professionals do it for me. :)

I've known many people who cast, and I think it's a great way to turn out inexpensive bullets for plinking, providing you don't factor in your labor cost! :D

Unique was one of my favorite powders, but I've given in to the new super ball powders that make metering effortless!

Unique is one of the most predictable powders on the market in my opinion. A few years ago, I ran a series of Unique 45 Colt loads through my chronograph, and then plotted the velocities on a graph. What I found was that it was so linear I might have saved a great deal of time by just plotting the minimum and maximum loads, and drawing a straight line between the two!!! :D

Bill
 
Bill,
I agree--------
I began my 'handgun-quest' in earnest many moons ago. I actually thought 'I' would get to the bottom of all of it............
The more I learned -the more there was to learn and then those dang firearms manufacturers kept giving us new models------
On and on I went from one this to the next that!
Now I look back and see many of my civilian handgunners(for whom I gave a good accurate load for their guns)..........they are still having fun with the same old load, same old gun! Just makes me sick---I mean here I have worked my fingers to the bone in my search for the 'perfect' combination(s).
Maybe we would all be better off if the only target load was 2.7 grns of Bullseye with a wadcutter!
Oh well this is actually a addiction.
One load is too many and 10,000 new ones is not enough.
I am sure the new handgunners, who are taking our places, will discover what we missed.
I am still having fun though and if I had it to do over I would not change a thing..........hummm......I wonder if that new powder 'you' mentioned might work well with one of my concoctions.....................................................
Don Mallard
 
Don,

What fun is an addiction without variety? :D

Like you, I want to try everything new on the market, yet feel some loyalty to the old products, that have served me well. :)

My current favorite all around powder is Ramshot True Blue, from Western Powders.

http://www.ramshot.com/

I've worked up loads for 9X18 Makarov, 9X19 Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .45 Colt with this powder, and it performs exceptionally well in all of them! Gives me very small extreme spreads, standard deviations under 10, and excellent accuracy!

It's too new to be listed in the burning rate charts, but judging from the load weights, it falls somewhere between Unique and Blue Dot. It's the third fastest powder in the Ramshot line, with Zip being the fastest, Silhouette next, then True Blue, and finally Enforcer, in the pistol powder line.

The smallest standard deviations have been on the high end of the load range, but below magnum level loads.

The granularity is tiny, and a dash in a flat container rolls around like micro sized ball bearings. This is the best metering powder I've ever used, and I can throw hundreds of charges from my Uniflow, with no measurable variations on my Ohaus 505 scale!

If your looking for something new to play with, give it a try. I think you'll like it. :D

Bill
 
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