HelgeS is back--part 2.

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You are incorrect to say that it is hypocritical for Christians to own weapons for self defense. The Old Testement clearly allows killing in self-defense. Exodus 22:2-3 excuses anyone from bloodguilt who kills a nighttime intruder, but not a daytime intruder. Why the distinction? It seems reasonable to assume that the killing was allowed only in protection of life, not property. In the dark of your house at night, you can't see if the intruder has a weapon. In addition, breaking into a house at night means the thief knows there are people in the house, and thus is probably prepared for violence. A daytime thief is presumably trying to avoid the occupants, and can be driven off without killing. Christ did not come to abolish the law, especially its moral tenants, though certain laws were meant to apply only to the Jewish nation. The moral tenant of self-preservation remains.

Jesus is not a pacifist. He drove the money changers and animals from the temple with a whip. Revalation tells us that the final judgements will be violent.

However, Jesus did indeed tell us that if someone strikes us on our right cheek, we should never retaliate, but should turn the other cheek. However, a slap on the cheek is not an assualt with intent to kill. Jesus did not say "If someone stabs you on your right side, let him stab you on your left side." Consider being struck on the "right cheek." If the person doing the hitting uses his right hand, it is a backhanded blow. Jesus clearly meant that if the act is intended to insult and degrade we should never retaliate or act in vengence. He did not tell us that we should submit to death by random street crime, rather than protect ourselves.

Another member of the board has done a good job of addressing the subject, and I suggest you take a look:
http://www.donath.org/Rants/BiblicallyArmed/
 
I don't think there were enough ships to get that many slaves to this country. We are talking sailing ships not carriers.(maybe some steamships later)
The US goverment did terrible things to the Indians. The Indians did terrible things to each other.
 
Well, he's off to dinner...bonapytete. In case no one noticed he didn't give me an answer on the conquered nations of Germany and Japan being restored if they won the war. Me thinks he has feet of clay, right Duke...right Jim. Hell, he can talk in scenarios so can the rest of us.

Jim
 
RickD:

I think your right, I've also wasted enough time with this tin horn socialist. the guy is a fraud. It don't gain us anything batting words around. Someone else can play if they want to. I'm out 'o here.
 
Back from dinner. What do you guys expect? I am a single person with limited amount of time at my hands. You on the other hand are 20-30 folks, all posting like crazy. I barely have the time to READ all the stuff. And you get mad if i don't answer right away??? I am in the position of a football trainer being as by all players at the same time to explain different tactics. Stay on the carpet folks.

And amazingly enough, among all the barking, there has still only been a minimal amount of actual arguing from your side. I answered a whole lot of questions above... never heard anything about it again. I asked for facts, never got any (the only one I got was about the census, which, while nice to know, has nothing to do with the whole gun issue discussion.

Look at the situation folks:

You are sitting here, many of you. You are the focus of the pro gun movement. You have debated the issue probably for years. Then ONE person comes into the room and politely asks for a discussion. And BANG, all those people, with all that knowledge and discussion experience, have to fall back on racist slanders, insults and flaming. I could go into a new group of the Jehova Witnesses and get more tolerance and quality arguments. Take 90% of the people posting against me, and you have the reason why the pro gun movement suffers so much from the "stupid cowboy with a gun" stereotype. There are a few here who try to argue the case, but they are drowned under the wave of petty insults from unqualified people.

I have tried my very best to keep up with the posting and finally reach a discussion at the appropiate level. To no avail. I have learned a lot from some people, got a good insight into certain areas, but I am far from pleased with the result yet. On the other hand, I have seen enough of this board to realise that my vision of an intelligent discussion will not be accomplished here. Thus, my further presence here is pointless.

Looks like you have your place for yourself again. Keep patting each others head, opinions nicely streamlined lest somebody had to use a part of the brain. It seems to bring unlimited happiness to "vent off" at this place without having to fear that somebody objects and one actually needs to think about the issue.
Life is so much either if ranting replaces thinking.

good bye

Helge

PS: To the few people who brought forth fair and good arguments: I am thankful for it and learned from the information too. I am sorry if I wasn't able to reply directly to each and every issue mentioned. If posts erupt every 5 minutes on average then it is hard for me to read and answer them all. I tried to read them all, but answering them all and filtering through all the rubbish would have taken way more time than I have at my disposal. Please forgive.
 
Helge,
1) Buy yourself a large caliber muzzle-loading rifle or musket.
2) Go to an outdoor range with someone who knows what he's doing.
3) Add powder, ball, cap, or flint.
4) Take aim and fire.
5) Watch all your problems (like annoying posts) go up in smoke!
 
Helge,
As someone who speaks German I saw a few gramatical and usage constructs in your original posts that would be consistent with a german person using english as a second language. I see no indication of such in your more recent postings--let me congratulate you on your amazingly rapid acquisition of quite flawless usage in a highly idiomatic and complex language (english); you must be quite a mental specimen.

Lonnie
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HelgeS:
[B

God gave you the right to bear arms? quote please. Maybe I just read the wrong bible. Just give me the quote from the bible, thanks.

[/B][/quote]

Try Revelations 13:10... or Luke 22:36...

Now go away.



------------------
Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
Oh, just before going to bed I remembered the "you are not german" talk from before dinner.

Helge Seetzen, Pass Nummer 1847058717

I accept public apoligies or private ones over email. And for the first time "being a man" is asked for :)

cheers

Helge

PS: Is it my fault that I speak your language well? Folks, I speak 11 languages at about the same level as I speak english. Pretty much every german nowadays learns english for 10-13 years in school, french for 6-9 years and then at least one more for 5-7 years. If I really wanted, I could easily appear here as a frenchmen, russian, isreali, norwegian, spaniard, italian and more. But why? I am German. Its not like that brought me much sympathy here...

PPS: Those "first posts" with "german" grammar mistakes, they were written around 3am in the morning after a day of hard work. I am rather happy that I was able to spell my own name at that point in time :)
 
Swell. You can speak English, but you know squat (that's an uncivilized colloquialism meaning... well, don't get your hands in it) about American. At the risk of repeating myself, go away. The world would be a vastly different place were it not for the events of 1775-1783, and I'll be damned if I'll criticize the role we played in bailing the world's asses out of misadventures (WWI, WWII spring to mind) which were largely not our doing. You may not like our freedom, but we do.

Go away.

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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
Some of you guys are as bad as Helge. Attacks on both sides. He's aggressive enough to wreck his own arguments if you stay with it.

I'm wondering what we'll say about this exchange a month from now. Will we regret a lost opportunity?

I don't know if I have the energy to work on a mind made up anymore. Good entertainment. I hope he doesn't run off. Questions and facts are the key, not emotion-packed assertions.

Even when you score and win a "point", he'll deny it. Another thing I noticed, some of Helge's assertions are not worth reply. They are distractions, intended to goad. They are succeeding.

Some souls are just lost, never to be recovered. I'm not a Grand Master of debate, just MHO.

...
 
:(
[sob] Are to we be left to speculate as to why HelgS had a shotgun pointed at him? [/sob]

(squinting my eyes and furrowing my brow in my best Bill Curtis imitation)HelgeS-You're not from around here are you?
 
Hell, I leave for a couple a days and you guys start world war II again. George you gotta email me if this happens again. :)
It would be my luck to have a german liberal apear whilist I sleept. Damn, maybe next time.

Can't believe no one quoted all the death delt out by the red chinese? From former chair-Joint Chiefs, read figure at 80,000,000
and belive this is all in the 20th century. Though I cannot name his source, will require further reasearch.


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The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

Do you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. We're after power and we mean it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breakings laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law breakers--and then you cash in on guilt.

A RAND




[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited July 17, 2000).]
 
Hey HelgeS

Why no email right now? I was looking forward to sending you one with the purpose of intelligent discussion without flaming and all that, and to my astonishment, you dont have one. You can get one with AOL or Yahoo mit keine problem, so why dont you have one? I would be very surprised if you actually are German, as most of the Germans I've met have been brainwashed on practically all social issues, especially WW2. Or is that why your here, they kicked you out for not getting with the program.

Anyway, you seem to have the balls to argue anomanously, lets see if you care to do it one on one.

Cheers
 
This isn't a 'lost opportunity' ... this was drivel.

Interesting that the man proves his German identity by apparently giving us his German ID number. I would say that pretty much sums up his perspective.

Let's move on to more important discussions, and quit catering to this foolishness.

Regards from AZ
 
Cute cute...

A quicky before breakfast:

- I saw no or got no apology from the "you are not german" folks yet. They were on this forum though (one of them so far) in the meantime. May I propose a resolution: Delete their accounts. What's the point of people who bark with the masses, then uncomfortably realise that they made a mistake and finally aren't man enough to admit it.

- Email: hseetzen@physics.ubc.ca
It is, and has always been there. A good 5 people actually managed to email me. So divine intervention ruled out, they must have gotten my email from here :)

- "use a gun" folks: dudes, if I want to have my "trouble" go away then I relax on the beach with my lady or some such. But then, if you get something out of shooting a gun in the air, be it. Gun control laws would deny you that. There would still be licensed shooting ranges (just that they would have their own guns then that you can use while being there).

- "Helge never admits a point". Hmmm... adjust your monitor sharpness. At least 2 times in this thread alone i have taken points. The slavery issue for one. Can't remember ANY other point actually being MADE (you know, with facts, logic and such, not with senseless racist slurs from uninformed folks). The only one borderlining to a point is the bible issue. And there I am inclined to beg to differ. The old testament, yes, there you are allowed to fight back, in fact, vendetta is a big deal in it. Christians on the other hand, believe in the new testament (don't give me "only do not defend yourself if slapped, not if stapped" please... that's just silly. Jesus had himself banged on the cross, KILLED, and despite the eagerness of his followers he let it happen, being a pacifist and all.). Thus, old testament (for those Jewish among us), yes, all fine. New testament (for all those christians among us) nope, no violence allowed.
Now, turn the spit around. How many "points" have been admitted from your side? And i HAVE made a couple that are without ANY doubt valid (german citizen just for one). Most of mine are open to discussion, but some are simple facts. Never heard a word of "point taken" from that side.
Instead what I now hear is: "go away". All I do here, is to point out the logical errors in the insults I receive. You are right to say "go away", since you are just talking about your own incapability in the field of logic.

- Think about a last point:

The purpose of this group seems to be the prevention of the gun control laws (which are slowly coming). Now, judging by the havoc caused when I came, there is not a single person (apart from me) here, who is not already a pro gun voter. And you seem to be unable and unwilling to present any arguments to anti gun people when they come here. Instead you insult them and drive them off.
What does that mean. Well, it means that this place is utterly useless. There are what, 100 members here? Something like that. That's 100 die hard pro gunners. And they would be just that without the forum too. Now, lets face the throught here: You are utterly irrelevant. 100 voters isn't even something a small town mayor cares about. And given the rhetorical inabilities of most of you, I sincerely doubt that there are a lot of high class political leaders or representants in this group. In other word, in its current configuration, this place is utterly useless.

Now, on the other hand, if you were able to receive "strangers" like me and make a good solid case and argument then you might just be able to drawn NEW people to your cause. The second you get one more member who was a anti gun, that second you have done so much more than in the month of useless ranting among each other.
For all that talk about your freedom and democracy, rather few of you actually seem to comprehend what democracy means in this case. In a 250 million democracy the lone voter is about as irrelevant as fly-**** UNLESS he convinces others. And others can only be convinced by fair, good and logical discussion, certainly not by insulting them until they give in.

Just food for thought

cheers

Helge
 
PS: Just something that came to mind. With all that talk about the US over all and such. How many of you have been elsewhere for a longer period of time? Just curious. I mean, you know, if you have never been to say France for longer than a month or two, well, then you aren't really qualified to make any statement beyond memorized propaganda about the place. Looking through some of the posts on this board, it looks mightily like almost all the members here are massive world traveller. Truly an image to behold.
Why doesn't everybody who posts from now one simply writes "been abroad for over 1 month in place xxx". Just a little poll. Can't harm.
 
Germany.......4 years
Korea.........9 years
Viet Nam......3 years

So.....what's your point?

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
105K. Start part 2, if you've got the notion.

Malta:1967-1969
Libya:1969-1970
Nigeria:1970-1977
London:1977-1978
Abu Dhabi/Saudi Arabia/Kuwait:1978-1980

This does not count any time under a year spent in any countries.

US Army, Various duty posts: 1985-1989

Something like that, HelgeS?

LawDog
 
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