HelgeS is back--part 2.
- Thread starter LawDog
- Start date
- Status
If a democratically elected "Hitler" gains power over the US tomorrow, what would you (you, the person, not the collective) do?
I, and some 80 million other individuals collectively owning some 250 million firearms, would proceed to overthrow that dictatorship and restore the constitutional republic. There would be enough armed persons that we _could_ act to restore a proper government. Don't dismiss this...notice that the US government has been stable far longer than most European governments, and it's not just because we like our politicians.
What good has been done?
Among the negative responses are a LOT of positive ones. You would do well to address them and ignore the idiots.
Good comments like:
- Many no-gun countries have crime & homicide rates that exceed the US. Mexico, Japan (!), South Africa, and others...all disproving "guns=crime, no guns = no crime."
- Most of the gun-related homicides in the US are among active criminals. Actually few moral, law-abiding citizens are harmed.
- You have a God-given right to defend yourself, and to posess appropriate tools. Disarming the good will not eliminate the bad, it will encourage the bad to do more (Australia & England & Washington DC come to mind).
- and many others.
Stick with the subject; ignore the tangents.
I, and some 80 million other individuals collectively owning some 250 million firearms, would proceed to overthrow that dictatorship and restore the constitutional republic. There would be enough armed persons that we _could_ act to restore a proper government. Don't dismiss this...notice that the US government has been stable far longer than most European governments, and it's not just because we like our politicians.
What good has been done?
Among the negative responses are a LOT of positive ones. You would do well to address them and ignore the idiots.
Good comments like:
- Many no-gun countries have crime & homicide rates that exceed the US. Mexico, Japan (!), South Africa, and others...all disproving "guns=crime, no guns = no crime."
- Most of the gun-related homicides in the US are among active criminals. Actually few moral, law-abiding citizens are harmed.
- You have a God-given right to defend yourself, and to posess appropriate tools. Disarming the good will not eliminate the bad, it will encourage the bad to do more (Australia & England & Washington DC come to mind).
- and many others.
Stick with the subject; ignore the tangents.
Back at you:
The United States of America cannot be held responsible for the acts of Foreign Government's in North America prior to 1776. Please, if you would, list the documentation you have for the 200,000,000 population in North America of Native Americans and Slaves.
What is the current unemployment rate in the EU? Here in America, a worker's protection is his productivity, His ability and willingness to work and an organized Union. I've heard that in Germany one must give an employee a six-month notice before you can fire him. Is this true? To me, an unabashed Ugly American, that sounds like a lazy bum's dream. In fact many of the employment rules in the EU sound ludicrous. The French's idea of a 35 hour work week to combat unemployment, is not better than a simple tax break to stimulate the productivity of a company, that turns around and increase the amount of employees. But our beliefs are fundamentally different. You're a Socialist, you believe that the State is there to protect you. I'm a Libertarian, I want the State to Get the F$%K out of my way. As my argument, would you like to compare our economies?
The United States of America cannot be held responsible for the acts of Foreign Government's in North America prior to 1776. Please, if you would, list the documentation you have for the 200,000,000 population in North America of Native Americans and Slaves.
What is the current unemployment rate in the EU? Here in America, a worker's protection is his productivity, His ability and willingness to work and an organized Union. I've heard that in Germany one must give an employee a six-month notice before you can fire him. Is this true? To me, an unabashed Ugly American, that sounds like a lazy bum's dream. In fact many of the employment rules in the EU sound ludicrous. The French's idea of a 35 hour work week to combat unemployment, is not better than a simple tax break to stimulate the productivity of a company, that turns around and increase the amount of employees. But our beliefs are fundamentally different. You're a Socialist, you believe that the State is there to protect you. I'm a Libertarian, I want the State to Get the F$%K out of my way. As my argument, would you like to compare our economies?
Most historians,It is said what if and so on.I see a lot of stuff said and 0 for sources.This person is pulling stuff out of his hat and a lot of you are buying it.Wake up, this person is not what he says he is.
Lawdog what facts?I have seen no sources for anything this man says and he dodges around when asked for them.
------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
Lawdog what facts?I have seen no sources for anything this man says and he dodges around when asked for them.
------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
Imagine Bush Jr is elected. According to his party program he will issue a bunch of laws to better the economy. And he does. In particular the immigration laws and the restrictions for foreign companies become harsher (nothing new for a democrat/replublican change). Economy will of course react positive to that. Everybody is happy. More and more mexicans in the south are deported back to mexico, the southern states are relieved from the need to spend a lot of money on the issue, economy grows. Then there is some trouble on the border. A dictatorship established in mexico, hostile to the US democracy. Their dictator makes a great show out of vowing vengeance for the bad treatment of the mexicans in the US. Mexican troops march towards the US border. The US calls to arms and swiftly in just a few weeks a decisive victory over mexico is achieved. Everybody rejoices.
Years later, you are old and talk to your grandchildren.
GC: "Grand dad, you are evil!"
YOU: "What's wrong with you? Why am I evil?"
GC: "Your government killed millions and you did nothing! You even fought for them!"
YOU: "We didn't kill anybody! I fought to protect my believes and my country!"
GC: "No grand dad, those mexicans weren't brought back to mexico, they were brought to concentration camps in the desert! Millions died!"
YOU: "But that cannot be, that's socialist lies! Our own TV showed them crossing the border!"
GC: "Grand dad, your TV was centrally controlled after Bush passed the IT law set. And by the way, there weren't any troops at the mexican border either. Nor a dictator. You invaded that helpless country and conquered it. I hate you. You didn't do anything!"
Think about it. We humans tend to make the mistake of considering us smarter and better than past generations. A bad mistake.
Yet, I am inclined to believe that a new rising of a Hitler is less likely nowadays (not just in the US, but in most "western" countries). This is NOT because of any personal qualities of the in habitants though, but simply because the independence and reach of the media has increased dramatically in the last 50 years. Add to that the increase in education and you have a solid defence against dictatorships.
- Many no-gun countries have crime & homicide rates that exceed the US. Mexico, Japan (!), South Africa, and others...all disproving "guns=crime, no guns = no crime."
Japan is the only seriously comparable country in that list. You can't really compare a society that is vastly inferior in the economical and educational field. Japan is a good point though.
- Most of the gun-related homicides in the US are among active criminals. Actually few
moral, law-abiding citizens are harmed.
That is a VERY Good point. I failed to see that in the stats i checked.
- You have a God-given right to defend yourself, and to posess appropriate tools. Disarming the good will not eliminate the bad, it will encourage the bad to do more (Australia & England & Washington DC come to mind).
Well, that depends a bit on what God you are talking about here
If you are talking about the christian god then you don't have any right whatsoever to defend yourself. Read the bible, new testament. I read it in latin and greek. Both versions completely agree on this point. Good Christians = No Guns (I know that this simple equation there might drive a lot of christian gun owners here balistic. But that's the word of the lord. Letter by letter. Anything else is hypocriticism).
If are a muslim, well, then again you a screwed. No god given right for the either in the koran (yet at least here the more "wordly" abuse-interpretation of the koran includes the right for combat and killing).
If you are jewish, YES, then you have all the god given right you would ever want. There are entire sections in the Thora about it.
cheers
Helge
Years later, you are old and talk to your grandchildren.
GC: "Grand dad, you are evil!"
YOU: "What's wrong with you? Why am I evil?"
GC: "Your government killed millions and you did nothing! You even fought for them!"
YOU: "We didn't kill anybody! I fought to protect my believes and my country!"
GC: "No grand dad, those mexicans weren't brought back to mexico, they were brought to concentration camps in the desert! Millions died!"
YOU: "But that cannot be, that's socialist lies! Our own TV showed them crossing the border!"
GC: "Grand dad, your TV was centrally controlled after Bush passed the IT law set. And by the way, there weren't any troops at the mexican border either. Nor a dictator. You invaded that helpless country and conquered it. I hate you. You didn't do anything!"
Think about it. We humans tend to make the mistake of considering us smarter and better than past generations. A bad mistake.
Yet, I am inclined to believe that a new rising of a Hitler is less likely nowadays (not just in the US, but in most "western" countries). This is NOT because of any personal qualities of the in habitants though, but simply because the independence and reach of the media has increased dramatically in the last 50 years. Add to that the increase in education and you have a solid defence against dictatorships.
- Many no-gun countries have crime & homicide rates that exceed the US. Mexico, Japan (!), South Africa, and others...all disproving "guns=crime, no guns = no crime."
Japan is the only seriously comparable country in that list. You can't really compare a society that is vastly inferior in the economical and educational field. Japan is a good point though.
- Most of the gun-related homicides in the US are among active criminals. Actually few
moral, law-abiding citizens are harmed.
That is a VERY Good point. I failed to see that in the stats i checked.
- You have a God-given right to defend yourself, and to posess appropriate tools. Disarming the good will not eliminate the bad, it will encourage the bad to do more (Australia & England & Washington DC come to mind).
Well, that depends a bit on what God you are talking about here
If you are talking about the christian god then you don't have any right whatsoever to defend yourself. Read the bible, new testament. I read it in latin and greek. Both versions completely agree on this point. Good Christians = No Guns (I know that this simple equation there might drive a lot of christian gun owners here balistic. But that's the word of the lord. Letter by letter. Anything else is hypocriticism).If are a muslim, well, then again you a screwed. No god given right for the either in the koran (yet at least here the more "wordly" abuse-interpretation of the koran includes the right for combat and killing).
If you are jewish, YES, then you have all the god given right you would ever want. There are entire sections in the Thora about it.
cheers
Helge
United Nations population estimates in 1995 for the following time period
1500 - 500 million
1800 - 980 million
For a growth of 480 million
Some how during this time period of 300 years the US manages to kill off 200 million people.
That's 666,666 a-year.
The average population growth for that time period is 1,600,000 a year
So the US would have had to kill 1/3 of the worlds growing population.
If we take the assumption that the hunter gatherer societies of the North American continent had a lower population density than then the farming Central and South American tribes (esp. the Aztec Empire.) I would state that during that time period, It would be impossible for there to be 200 million Natives and Slaves in the geographic region that the United States currently holds.
Sounds like someone's rewriting herstory.
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html
gopher://gopher.undp.org/00/ungophers/popin/wdtrends/histor
1500 - 500 million
1800 - 980 million
For a growth of 480 million
Some how during this time period of 300 years the US manages to kill off 200 million people.
That's 666,666 a-year.
The average population growth for that time period is 1,600,000 a year
So the US would have had to kill 1/3 of the worlds growing population.
If we take the assumption that the hunter gatherer societies of the North American continent had a lower population density than then the farming Central and South American tribes (esp. the Aztec Empire.) I would state that during that time period, It would be impossible for there to be 200 million Natives and Slaves in the geographic region that the United States currently holds.
Sounds like someone's rewriting herstory.
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html
gopher://gopher.undp.org/00/ungophers/popin/wdtrends/histor
Will Beararms
New member
The definition of liberalism is misery spread equally. The reason that America has made major advances in industry, defense and medicine is because of capatalism. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. We offer in this country the framework to succeed and succeed big versus in Europe where families like the Krupps and Berettas have always controlled the economy and always will. I admit that our economy can be cruel but the foundation is there to excel if you want to badly enough.
As for long hours, that is part of our culture. We believe in working hard and playing hard. I enjoy my job and my wife (Who is of German descent), enjoys the Internet company she founded. We both work long hours and pay for top-of-the-line health care, private schools and decent housing. I came from very humble beginnings andby no means have arrived but if I would have been born in some countries, my fate would have been sealed from birth.
As for industry control, we have a stock market that is vibrant in this country. When people invest in those companies, they are in fact allowing the company to control a portion of society. Where you put your money is where your heart is.
Guns: 80 million Americans own guns that we know of not including those who have them and we don't know about it. There are lies, confounded lies and statistics in the world and polls are no different. Gun ownership is not up for grabs. Neither are the other nine amendments inthe Bill of Rights. The way the constitution was wriiten, the Bill of Rights can never be changed. The only way this can be correctly done is if the government is overthrown. The Gun lobbies have the support of someone in this country or they would'nt exist. Do you think the funds fall down as bread from Heaven? No sir, I would say that industry in Europe has far more control over its citizens by closing controlling who can start a new company and who cannot.
Mexico: Please don't make yourself appear foolish by using this anology. Why do you think our borders are overflowing? Do you think Mexicans want to come over here for abuse? I have worked extensively in Mexico and there is a cast system in place. If you are rich, you stay rich. If you are poor you stay poor or move to the U.S.
Chinese Gay Rights: Our nation goes overboard to accomodate people of foreign origins. Where else can you demand to have schooling and government documents in your native tongue? Where else can you avoid taxes when starting a new company because you are a foreigner? Let's see Germany and tolerance? Let's ask somew of the foreign ethnic groups like the Turkish how this works.
Well, I have other pressing matters now but I shall return. Before this is over, we will have you turned into another John Wayne!
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
As for long hours, that is part of our culture. We believe in working hard and playing hard. I enjoy my job and my wife (Who is of German descent), enjoys the Internet company she founded. We both work long hours and pay for top-of-the-line health care, private schools and decent housing. I came from very humble beginnings andby no means have arrived but if I would have been born in some countries, my fate would have been sealed from birth.
As for industry control, we have a stock market that is vibrant in this country. When people invest in those companies, they are in fact allowing the company to control a portion of society. Where you put your money is where your heart is.
Guns: 80 million Americans own guns that we know of not including those who have them and we don't know about it. There are lies, confounded lies and statistics in the world and polls are no different. Gun ownership is not up for grabs. Neither are the other nine amendments inthe Bill of Rights. The way the constitution was wriiten, the Bill of Rights can never be changed. The only way this can be correctly done is if the government is overthrown. The Gun lobbies have the support of someone in this country or they would'nt exist. Do you think the funds fall down as bread from Heaven? No sir, I would say that industry in Europe has far more control over its citizens by closing controlling who can start a new company and who cannot.
Mexico: Please don't make yourself appear foolish by using this anology. Why do you think our borders are overflowing? Do you think Mexicans want to come over here for abuse? I have worked extensively in Mexico and there is a cast system in place. If you are rich, you stay rich. If you are poor you stay poor or move to the U.S.
Chinese Gay Rights: Our nation goes overboard to accomodate people of foreign origins. Where else can you demand to have schooling and government documents in your native tongue? Where else can you avoid taxes when starting a new company because you are a foreigner? Let's see Germany and tolerance? Let's ask somew of the foreign ethnic groups like the Turkish how this works.
Well, I have other pressing matters now but I shall return. Before this is over, we will have you turned into another John Wayne!
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
"Imagine Bush Jr is elected. According to his party program he will issue a bunch of laws to better the economy. And he does. In particular the immigration laws and the restrictions for foreign companies become harsher"
Were a president to do this, that would harm, not help the economy. This sounds like 1930s Europe and USA to me. It is nice to see that bad policies are still circulating out there for us to worry about.
Rick
Were a president to do this, that would harm, not help the economy. This sounds like 1930s Europe and USA to me. It is nice to see that bad policies are still circulating out there for us to worry about.
Rick
Aha, I can't take bad events that happened before the beginning of the current US political system to open your eyes. But YOU can easily (and do so more than freely) take bad events that happened before the beginnign of the current German political system to attack me (may I remind everybody here that we have a democratic system in Germany since 1949...). Ah, God must love the hypocrits, for he populated earth with them so generously.
Who wants facts? (Not that I have seen a single fact from the opposite side here. Weird that a single person is expected to have the time to find and cite facts over facts, yet the collective of 20-30 opposers here, people who have been discussing this topic for a long time and behave like they know all about it, can't offer any facts either.)
The number 200 million is an estimate made by several anthropologists. We know with relative certainty that about 34 million slaves were brought from africa to america. Given the observed figures for birth rate among slaves at that time and the rate of "non-natural" death among slaves you get a number slightly above 200 million for the entire period of slavery. The relevant numbers can be found all over the internet, in literature. I got them from www.encarta.com
More facts (even though it is irrelevant with respect to the gun control issue):
In germany we have 6 weeks of guaranteed holidays for everybody, guaranteed minimum wages over twice as high as in the US, govermential health system that covers everything, 35 hour week and lots more. You can't fire people without 6 month warning, you can't fire reason (and decreasing winnings is NOT a reason). If you go to germany, make a company and force people to work 70-90 hours then that would pretty much be called slavery. Furthermore, germany enjoys absolutely free and unrestricted education for everybody. That is, up to the post doc you can study for free, books, room and board, everything is supplied. any everybody who wants to do it can do so.
Personally, I see many cases were the german system is being abused by people living there. I think in some points the government went too far (an unemployed in germany gets more money and benefits than most working folks in the US). But on the other hand, i believe it a positive thing if a country is able to support even the lowest member of the economical chain and allow an good life. To me, that is the purpose of the government. And to be honest, I would rather be in a country with where everybody has access to a social support, health and education system and the gross economical product is high than one where two thirds of the population lives a life in poverty and bad education without being personally responsible for it, and the other part boosts the gross production to a VERY high point. But that's personal preference.
cheers
Helge
Who wants facts? (Not that I have seen a single fact from the opposite side here. Weird that a single person is expected to have the time to find and cite facts over facts, yet the collective of 20-30 opposers here, people who have been discussing this topic for a long time and behave like they know all about it, can't offer any facts either.)
The number 200 million is an estimate made by several anthropologists. We know with relative certainty that about 34 million slaves were brought from africa to america. Given the observed figures for birth rate among slaves at that time and the rate of "non-natural" death among slaves you get a number slightly above 200 million for the entire period of slavery. The relevant numbers can be found all over the internet, in literature. I got them from www.encarta.com
More facts (even though it is irrelevant with respect to the gun control issue):
In germany we have 6 weeks of guaranteed holidays for everybody, guaranteed minimum wages over twice as high as in the US, govermential health system that covers everything, 35 hour week and lots more. You can't fire people without 6 month warning, you can't fire reason (and decreasing winnings is NOT a reason). If you go to germany, make a company and force people to work 70-90 hours then that would pretty much be called slavery. Furthermore, germany enjoys absolutely free and unrestricted education for everybody. That is, up to the post doc you can study for free, books, room and board, everything is supplied. any everybody who wants to do it can do so.
Personally, I see many cases were the german system is being abused by people living there. I think in some points the government went too far (an unemployed in germany gets more money and benefits than most working folks in the US). But on the other hand, i believe it a positive thing if a country is able to support even the lowest member of the economical chain and allow an good life. To me, that is the purpose of the government. And to be honest, I would rather be in a country with where everybody has access to a social support, health and education system and the gross economical product is high than one where two thirds of the population lives a life in poverty and bad education without being personally responsible for it, and the other part boosts the gross production to a VERY high point. But that's personal preference.
cheers
Helge
I read with interested the stats from the world census. Maybe the number 200 million is wrong. I did a bit of searching on the web and there are all kinds of numerical answers, ranging from 30 million to 200 million. I can't make any guarantees for any of these estimates. Point is though, that this fancy number merely came into play after somebody accused me of being somehow involved the the greatest genocide ever (in the view of that person that would be the holocaust during WW2). I responded that the greatest genocide actually happend in america. And that is still a fact. Even the lowest estimate of 30 million gives 5 times as many victims as the holocaust. Stalin's ethic cleasing of the soviet unit gives 20 million victims, and so forth.
Again, this is NO excuse for any form of genocide. I am just trying to make a few people think before they pick up every single piece of propaganda and shout it out without thought.
cheers
Helge
Again, this is NO excuse for any form of genocide. I am just trying to make a few people think before they pick up every single piece of propaganda and shout it out without thought.
cheers
Helge
Actually I believe that the German people had a democracy well before 1949. Democracy was well in effect in the 1930's when they elected Hitler to be Chancellor. It was in fact a Democracy that brought Hitler to power.
" In 1800 the population of the United States included 893,602 slaves,
Of which only 36,505 were in the northern states. Vermont,
Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York,
And New Jersey provided for the emancipation of their slaves before
1804, most of them by gradual measures. The 3,953,760 slaves at
the census of 1860 were in the southern states."
http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?ti=761556943&sid=6#s6
"United Nations population estimates in 1995 for the following time period
1500 - 500 million
1800 - 980 million
For a growth of 480 million
Some how during this time period of 300 years the US manages to kill off 200 million people.
That's 666,666 a-year.
The average population growth for that time period is 1,600,000 a year
So the US would have had to kill 1/3 of the worlds growing population."
(Posted from earlier.)
Cool site but I can't find anything in it to state there was 200,000,000 people who died due to Slavery or Killing of Indians. Literally EVERY Indian or Slave would have had to die from the Lash, Bullet, or Sword to make this number true. Not ONE case of natural death could have happened. In fact in 1800 alone 2/3 of all slaves would have had to be killed just to make our 666,666 number as shown earlier.
Please, for the sake of argument. Don't state that no one has shown you facts right after I post. I find it very insulting that the quote and the page are not considered to be a fact in your eyes. In fact I specifically went to a UN page to find what might be considered the most Impartial statement.
I really believe you have fallen victim to revisionist "herstory" there is no way these numbers you quote can be accurate or correct.
" In 1800 the population of the United States included 893,602 slaves,
Of which only 36,505 were in the northern states. Vermont,
Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York,
And New Jersey provided for the emancipation of their slaves before
1804, most of them by gradual measures. The 3,953,760 slaves at
the census of 1860 were in the southern states."
http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?ti=761556943&sid=6#s6
"United Nations population estimates in 1995 for the following time period
1500 - 500 million
1800 - 980 million
For a growth of 480 million
Some how during this time period of 300 years the US manages to kill off 200 million people.
That's 666,666 a-year.
The average population growth for that time period is 1,600,000 a year
So the US would have had to kill 1/3 of the worlds growing population."
(Posted from earlier.)
Cool site but I can't find anything in it to state there was 200,000,000 people who died due to Slavery or Killing of Indians. Literally EVERY Indian or Slave would have had to die from the Lash, Bullet, or Sword to make this number true. Not ONE case of natural death could have happened. In fact in 1800 alone 2/3 of all slaves would have had to be killed just to make our 666,666 number as shown earlier.
Please, for the sake of argument. Don't state that no one has shown you facts right after I post. I find it very insulting that the quote and the page are not considered to be a fact in your eyes. In fact I specifically went to a UN page to find what might be considered the most Impartial statement.
I really believe you have fallen victim to revisionist "herstory" there is no way these numbers you quote can be accurate or correct.
"everybody here that we have a democratic system in Germany since 1949...). "
Helga, it would be nice if you told us who you were targeting in your statements. Was this directed at me, or someone else? Who is supposed to defend against your statements?
"Maybe the number 200 million is wrong."
It doesn't matter. You didn't address my point that those 200 million, or whatever, were disarmed, by law, and then slaughtered.
"I responded that the greatest genocide actually happend in america. And that is still a fact."
Arguable. But all of those happened over a period of time measured in the decades or centuries whereas Hitler's disarming of the Jews and others(in Germany and throughout Europe) resulted in 13 million deaths in just a few years.
The greatest genocide by rate of killing is likely to be Rwanda (1994) where their gun control laws from 1964 and on allowed one group to be unarmed while the government armed their slaughterers (Hutus v Tutsis). 800,000 killed in 100 spring days. Many victims and near victims were crying out to be armed (New York Times report as I recall).
"I am just trying to make a few people think before they pick up every single piece of propaganda"
Historical fact.
"In germany we have 6 weeks of guaranteed holidays for everybody, guaranteed minimum wages over twice as high as in the US, govermential health system"
How is your (and the rest of Europe's) unemployment rate? Growth rate? All that government bureaucracy is quite a drag, on the economy, and other things. Very Euro.
"support even the lowest member of the economical chain and allow an good life. To me, that is the purpose of the government."
Anybody want to direct this guy to the Preamble of the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence? I have to go.
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Helga, it would be nice if you told us who you were targeting in your statements. Was this directed at me, or someone else? Who is supposed to defend against your statements?
"Maybe the number 200 million is wrong."
It doesn't matter. You didn't address my point that those 200 million, or whatever, were disarmed, by law, and then slaughtered.
"I responded that the greatest genocide actually happend in america. And that is still a fact."
Arguable. But all of those happened over a period of time measured in the decades or centuries whereas Hitler's disarming of the Jews and others(in Germany and throughout Europe) resulted in 13 million deaths in just a few years.
The greatest genocide by rate of killing is likely to be Rwanda (1994) where their gun control laws from 1964 and on allowed one group to be unarmed while the government armed their slaughterers (Hutus v Tutsis). 800,000 killed in 100 spring days. Many victims and near victims were crying out to be armed (New York Times report as I recall).
"I am just trying to make a few people think before they pick up every single piece of propaganda"
Historical fact.
"In germany we have 6 weeks of guaranteed holidays for everybody, guaranteed minimum wages over twice as high as in the US, govermential health system"
How is your (and the rest of Europe's) unemployment rate? Growth rate? All that government bureaucracy is quite a drag, on the economy, and other things. Very Euro.
"support even the lowest member of the economical chain and allow an good life. To me, that is the purpose of the government."
Anybody want to direct this guy to the Preamble of the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence? I have to go.
Rick
------------------
"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
My deep apology. When I started writing the last post your statement wasn't there yet. Thus, while I was writing I had no real facts posted. Later I discovered that you had posted while I was writing and therefore added the second post.
Germany indeed had several short periods of "democracy" before the current system. I simply meant to point out that the current system is not connected to the Nazi regime in any way.
cheers
Helge
Germany indeed had several short periods of "democracy" before the current system. I simply meant to point out that the current system is not connected to the Nazi regime in any way.
cheers
Helge
Well guys it's been fun, but I need to get to work now so I can be the world next Billionare. (Something you can do in nasty old America) 
HelgeS: Say on this board. Keep an open mind and your Asbestos suit on and you'll do fine. I'd hate to see someone get run off before we get a chance to deprogram them.
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"Big or Little, it's all the same to a .45
Which comment embraced the full philosophy of the Gunfighter"
R.E. Howard
HelgeS: Say on this board. Keep an open mind and your Asbestos suit on and you'll do fine. I'd hate to see someone get run off before we get a chance to deprogram them.
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"Big or Little, it's all the same to a .45
Which comment embraced the full philosophy of the Gunfighter"
R.E. Howard
Munro Williams
New member
Helge,
There's a good book called "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff which compares and contrasts the influence of the philosophical underpinnings of the Weimar Republic and the USA. Basically, he compares Kant's Critique of Pure Reason with the Declaration of Independence and the influence all the way down the line of these two schools of thought. Dense, polemic, and detailed.
P.S.
Get yourself a rifle and go to the range!
There's a good book called "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff which compares and contrasts the influence of the philosophical underpinnings of the Weimar Republic and the USA. Basically, he compares Kant's Critique of Pure Reason with the Declaration of Independence and the influence all the way down the line of these two schools of thought. Dense, polemic, and detailed.
P.S.
Get yourself a rifle and go to the range!
Just two minor little points, if you please?
1] Karl Marx and his teachings is recorded as causing the most amount of genocide in this past century.
Als...gee Helge, for someone that could barely write English in a sense it was readable yesterday...your grasp of the written word has improved drastically in just a few hours. Like talking to someone claiming to be a foreigner using stilted English...only to overhear them speaking with someone else a bit later using perfect Kaliforny.
Again...as I posted in your first 'essay'. I believe you are a liar when you tell us of your 'background'. Don't be shy who are you really?
1] Karl Marx and his teachings is recorded as causing the most amount of genocide in this past century.
Als...gee Helge, for someone that could barely write English in a sense it was readable yesterday...your grasp of the written word has improved drastically in just a few hours. Like talking to someone claiming to be a foreigner using stilted English...only to overhear them speaking with someone else a bit later using perfect Kaliforny.
Again...as I posted in your first 'essay'. I believe you are a liar when you tell us of your 'background'. Don't be shy who are you really?
Will Beararms
New member
HelgeS:
If Deutschland est uber alles, why are you studying over here? If you like the way Society runs in Germany, by all means take advantage of it. Additionally, you are entitled to your opinion at any time.
Meanwhile, let us conduct our affairs as we see fit 90 hr work weeks or not, drive-by shootings or not, strict moral standards or not. I do not have to offer any facts, they speak for themselves. 200+ years ago some people came over from Europe to an unknown land. With God's help they established some colonies that became a nation. They included in their constitution a segement that acknowledged some of the basic rights God gave us. One of these rights is the Second Amendment. The burden of proof was borne at Valley Forge and Concord. We sent the Red Coats packing back to merry old England and the rest is history. They can't have guns and we can.
Owning or not owning a gun neither establishes nor negates a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. We in and of ourselves are so feeble and Christ died for this reason. He who knew no sin took on our sins.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
If Deutschland est uber alles, why are you studying over here? If you like the way Society runs in Germany, by all means take advantage of it. Additionally, you are entitled to your opinion at any time.
Meanwhile, let us conduct our affairs as we see fit 90 hr work weeks or not, drive-by shootings or not, strict moral standards or not. I do not have to offer any facts, they speak for themselves. 200+ years ago some people came over from Europe to an unknown land. With God's help they established some colonies that became a nation. They included in their constitution a segement that acknowledged some of the basic rights God gave us. One of these rights is the Second Amendment. The burden of proof was borne at Valley Forge and Concord. We sent the Red Coats packing back to merry old England and the rest is history. They can't have guns and we can.
Owning or not owning a gun neither establishes nor negates a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. We in and of ourselves are so feeble and Christ died for this reason. He who knew no sin took on our sins.
------------------
"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 16, 2000).]
Quoting Helge from the other closed thread dated July 16, 2000 05:14PM
"P.S. (to that "we have balls" fellow above):Again, have you fought in WW2? Have you personally done anything to prevent unjust war? Have you tried to stop the US government frin wagin war in Vietnam?
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Answer: No, but fought at the end of the Korean war, flew in Navy AD5N skyraiders as radar operater working APS 31 Baker gear.
Very dangerous work, we lost a lot of men and aircraft.
Wasn't in the Vietnam war, how could I stop it. Didn't have to flee to Canada to avoid
that crappy war.
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Quote from Helge continued:
I firmly believe that we would have this discussion even if Germany and Japanhad won the war. The difference would be that you would call me an evil democrat, I would be the American, you the german, I would be attacked all for acts of destruction committed by the U.S. in the past and you would be the one accusing me of forging facts when I told that your government committed the biggest genocide ever. You would claim that your government secures "peace" all over the world, etc, etc.
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Answer: I don't believe there are many out there that believe that double talk for one damn minute, I know I don't and I resent you making up such crap to valididate your statements. The enslaved nations like those conquered by Germany and Japan during the WW-2 proves beyond a doubt that they had no thoughts of restoring and rebuilding those destroyed countries. Your arguments are BS,
There would be no discussion between us the conquered and you the victor. Its time for a reality check Herr Helge. But I realize your are tap dacing your way through this mine field and you are getting tired. At least we are of your rhetoric and non facts.
"P.S. (to that "we have balls" fellow above):Again, have you fought in WW2? Have you personally done anything to prevent unjust war? Have you tried to stop the US government frin wagin war in Vietnam?
--------------------------------------------
Answer: No, but fought at the end of the Korean war, flew in Navy AD5N skyraiders as radar operater working APS 31 Baker gear.
Very dangerous work, we lost a lot of men and aircraft.
Wasn't in the Vietnam war, how could I stop it. Didn't have to flee to Canada to avoid
that crappy war.
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Quote from Helge continued:
I firmly believe that we would have this discussion even if Germany and Japanhad won the war. The difference would be that you would call me an evil democrat, I would be the American, you the german, I would be attacked all for acts of destruction committed by the U.S. in the past and you would be the one accusing me of forging facts when I told that your government committed the biggest genocide ever. You would claim that your government secures "peace" all over the world, etc, etc.
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Answer: I don't believe there are many out there that believe that double talk for one damn minute, I know I don't and I resent you making up such crap to valididate your statements. The enslaved nations like those conquered by Germany and Japan during the WW-2 proves beyond a doubt that they had no thoughts of restoring and rebuilding those destroyed countries. Your arguments are BS,
There would be no discussion between us the conquered and you the victor. Its time for a reality check Herr Helge. But I realize your are tap dacing your way through this mine field and you are getting tired. At least we are of your rhetoric and non facts.
"your honours, I put forward charged against Helge. He lied about his background!"
"With what motive?"
"your honours, he wanted to receive a tirade of insults. And because he is already banned from the 100000 message boards out there that discuss WW2 directly he had to come to the gun control board to get it!"
"Oh... and what prove do you have?"
"your honours, his english is better than mine!"
Dude, promise me that you never enter law school!
And what about that
"1] Karl Marx and his teachings is recorded as causing the most amount of genocide in this past century."
Is that an english language test? Wrong grammar, bad use of terminology in it. Did I pass?
If it is just meant as a statement. Well, I am happy that you try to support my thesis, thanks.
Finally, I don't see any need to prove my identity here. Take it for granted that I am the very person my background describes
Next one:
God didn't give the settlers america. Military, technological superiority and ruthlessness did. Same for all other countries in that respect. Lets be realistic here.
God gave you the right to bear arms? quote please. Maybe I just read the wrong bible. Just give me the quote from the bible, thanks.
Next one:
"I wasn't in Vietnam, how could I have stopped it".
That's pretty much what my grand father said too: "I was not a soldier, just a scientist. What could I have done".
cheers
Helge
PS: Facts folks. Thanks
PPS: I am off for dinner. Thanks for the entertainment.
"With what motive?"
"your honours, he wanted to receive a tirade of insults. And because he is already banned from the 100000 message boards out there that discuss WW2 directly he had to come to the gun control board to get it!"
"Oh... and what prove do you have?"
"your honours, his english is better than mine!"
Dude, promise me that you never enter law school!
And what about that
"1] Karl Marx and his teachings is recorded as causing the most amount of genocide in this past century."
Is that an english language test? Wrong grammar, bad use of terminology in it. Did I pass?
If it is just meant as a statement. Well, I am happy that you try to support my thesis, thanks.
Finally, I don't see any need to prove my identity here. Take it for granted that I am the very person my background describes
Next one:
God didn't give the settlers america. Military, technological superiority and ruthlessness did. Same for all other countries in that respect. Lets be realistic here.
God gave you the right to bear arms? quote please. Maybe I just read the wrong bible. Just give me the quote from the bible, thanks.
Next one:
"I wasn't in Vietnam, how could I have stopped it".
That's pretty much what my grand father said too: "I was not a soldier, just a scientist. What could I have done".
cheers
Helge
PS: Facts folks. Thanks
PPS: I am off for dinner. Thanks for the entertainment.
- Status