headshots in sd situation (failure to stop drill)

What I'm trying to say is that I believe that a drill like two rounds to COM, wait 2 seconds, one hit to head at a perfectly still target seems to be counterproductive.
Click to expand...
I think it is too. If I have enough time to count to two full seconds during a gunfight you aren't shooting fast enough and you aren't moving to cover. The way I train and the way it should be done, IMO, is a controlled pair to the COM and an immediate headshot as soon as the sights are on target for the head.

When you are in a gunfight you should be shooting or moving to cover or both. There should hardly be a lull in shooting from your weapon, save for reloading if needed, so long as your target is exposed.

The problem with a lot of training is that it is static. You stand still here and shoot at a still target at 15y. Not a lot of training is dynamic. Both the shooter and target should be moving. Airsoft/force on force is one of the most enlightening forms of training. It changes a lot of people's minds that used to think you only need the one mag in the gun or a revolver should be good enough. 4 on 1 with the single "victim" having 5 shots turns opinions very quickly.

Gage, if you have enough time to cherry pick where your shots are going, you have enough time to create distance from the threat, move to cover, or simply eliminate it.
 
i agree to a point. if you can, always create distance, use cover, etc. like i said, if you can try to go to one side of the other. chances are, you might not have that time. there are a million situations that add too many variables in this question. bottom line, if you ask me, go com, pelvic, and then head if you have to. so far, that has worked for many of my students and for some of the guys that work with me.

cheers,
c
 
for real world, go com, then pelvic to take the wheels out of the bad guy then go to the head which it's movement will be reduced due to the pelvic shots.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, pelvic shots are overrated. You have to shatter the bone in order to make them effective, and the bone is fairly spongy and resilient. Many handgun rounds will not cause incapacitating fractures. And even if the bone is fractured, most first responders (including our own LawDog) can tell you of people who are ambulatory on a fractured (in his grandmother's case, I believe it was a fractured and displaced) pelvis.

Can we also clarify "center mass"? Are we talking center mass of the chest (what the term originally meant) or center mass of the target (the incorrect usage that unfortunately carries over into B27s, IDPA targets, etc)?
 
if whole target is in view, center mass is in the chest, armpit level. if they are behind cover and something is sticking out, you go center mass of what it exposed.
 
The only head shot in a home defensive situation I have any personal experience with was not a stopper. My boss used a 4" S&W Mod 28 HWY Patrol and Remington .357 158gr HPT to shoot an attacking burglar in the mouth at 8 steps or so. Took out the lower jaw, teeth and bullet were loged in the sheet rock behind the burglar. Second shot was in the mans right hip as he fled down the hall way. took out his hip joint and he collapsed there. Quick police and ambulance response saved the mans life. The 158 gr hpt destroyed the hip joint which the State of Texas had to replace.

My boss shot low in both shots, he had never shot at close range and was using the classic 6 oclock hold. At the range we determined at close range the bullets impact is where the bulk of the sights are, not on top of the front blade.

In this particular incident both bullets exited the man but did not have the energy to penetrate the sheet rock in his house. Majot bones were impacted with each shot.
 
Unless you practice head shots an awful lot, trying to make a head shot won't be easy. You need to drill and drill until you can do head shots in your sleep. Even then, the head is an awfully small thing to hit with a bullet, especially when it is bobbing around and moving. The best way to do head shots is from close range ambush and with your first round. Sort of like what John Wilkes Booth did with President Lincoln. Booth got close, almost point blank range, and his first shot went right into the President's head from behind. Booth had surprise from an ambush type of shot working for him with the first bullet well placed into the head at close range. The same sort of thing was depicted in the movie Enemies at the Gate. Sure, Enemies was a movie but you get the idea of getting close and using a head shot like when the Russian sniper killed the German sniper, Major Koenig. Same concept.
 
if whole target is in view, center mass is in the chest, armpit level. if they are behind cover and something is sticking out, you go center mass of what it exposed.
Click to expand...

That's the proper meaning of the phrase. Unfortunately, it's not what most people think of nor train for. They tend to shoot for the center of the mass of the target, and put rounds into diaphragm/upper abdomen area of the target where there isn't much of anything beyond the descending aorta and spine to "work" with. The good stuff is up higher.
 
Think So?

If you can get in a good head shot in a SD situation, good for you. It might do everything you hope. Remember Self Defense means you're already fairly sure that your life is in mortal danger - and it's likely to be a surprise.

In actual shooting confrontations - when you and somebody else - are shooting at one another - lots of things go wrong, partly because you're probably both churning adrenaline and neither of you are standing still. Lots of shots go wild and many people tend to shoot pretty high when they're under stress. If you can even connect a shot or two Center Of Mass while all the excitement is going on, you're better than most of us. Heck, if you're that good, maybe you should be like the Lone Ranger or the Phantom and just shoot the weapon out of the bad guy's hands. The rest of us are going to be working on COM.
 
6 oclock hold is for shooting targets. A SD weapon should be sighted to point of aim in a SD situation you shouldn't have to worry about where you should aim to hit such in such a place you should hit where you aim. I know that from 1-25 yards If I do my part the bullet will impact within 1.5 inches of point of aim. At 100yards if I aim at the neck I will get a COM hit. I know that I can make a COM hit at close range with the gun sideways with the triggerguard digging into my hip because it was drilled into me and I still practice it and have used it in an actual shooting. In the shooting muscle memory took over and it worked.
I have seen a few head shots in my time and some live because they were shot straight in the mouth. If the slug does not hit the spine its normally a wounding shot and as Hamor related not a stopping shot. To stop going through the mouth you have to do it at an upward angle to get the brain if ther perp is leaning into you with a knife you have to be a little high to get the heart and lung,
 
Last edited:
peetzakilla said:
Odds of needing my gun: small
Odds of needing to shoot: smaller
Odds of needing more than one shot: very small
Odds of needing more than 2: vanishingly small
Odds of needing "2 to the chest, 1 to the head": ridiculously small as to be beyond imagination to the point that I don't care about it
Click to expand...

Then why bother carrying a gun or even talk about it?

Personally I know what i would do in any SD situation. Put as many bullets in the BGs COM as I can as fast as i can. Headshots are going to be way to hard to make if hes moving at all.
 
Is it realistic?

Yes, especially at close quarter range. Most gunfights happen within several feet. You put some rounds in the high center and if he is still fighting, put some in the head. By the way, the head maybe the only target you have.
 
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Odds of needing my gun: small
Odds of needing to shoot: smaller
Odds of needing more than one shot: very small
Odds of needing more than 2: vanishingly small
Odds of needing "2 to the chest, 1 to the head": ridiculously small as to be beyond imagination to the point that I don't care about it
Click to expand...
Then why bother carrying a gun or even talk about it?
Click to expand...

Simply because of the other dimension of risk analysis:

Consequences if one is unable to defend oneself: Extremely severe.

Does anyone really believe that the likelihood that he as a civilian will need to fire weapon in self defense is greater than remote?

I don't. But that doesn't mean I won't carry.

Consider the odds of a house fire; of needing catastrophic health insurance coverage; of being hit head on in traffic; and so on. The odds are very small.

We mitigate these risks because the consequences are so great.

Back to the original question, I should think that the risks associated with attempting head shots (miss, and lose, or miss and hit the wrong person) are too great to accept. I doubt that under most circumstances in which deadly force would be justified for a civilian one would have the time to try anyway.

Peace officers have a different set of scenarios to consider, and they may have to use weapons in circumstances in which a civilian would not be justified.
 
Its reasonable to expect most self defense situations to unfold within touch range, with that said, headshots are are likely only if involved in an actual upclose and personal fight(ie, VC attempts to disarm you), at which point, you do what you have to do to survive. If you are brought up on charges, rest assured that the prosecuter will use the headshot argument against you, but at least you will be alive to defend yourself against the charges. like a previous poster mentioned, if clean shots to the center mass dont stop the attacker, the VC is most likely high and unable to feel pain; I know it sounds crass, but in that situation, there is little alternative to putting a round between the ears at point blank range.
 
Then why bother carrying a gun or even talk about it?
Click to expand...

Simply because of the other dimension of risk analysis:

Consequences if one is unable to defend oneself: Extremely severe.
Click to expand...


Oh brother. :rolleyes: I think I made it clear in my original post. This is MY opinion, my life. No one elses. You wanna prepare for this, go right ahead. See, here's what I said:

I'll play the odds again on this one. Just me no one else has to... YMMV, IMO, IMHO... yadda yadda yadda
Click to expand...


We ALL draw the line somewhere. We cannot prepare for 100% of situations 100% of the time. Make your choice on what to prepare for and live with it. Don't tell me I'm underprepared because I don't do what you do. I'm not telling you that you're over prepared because you do more than I do.

or... we can get into the "Your better have 2 guns because...", "Oh no, you need 2 and a bug...", "Nope, 2 and a bug and 3 extra mags and a knife and pepper spray and a kevlar vest and an armored car..."

The question was "Do you think it's realistic to prepare for headshots...?"

My answer: I don't. Do what you want.
 
Let's discuss extreme CQ situation a bit, then.
From my point of view:
1. I did not say I'd never go for a headshot. But the headshot would be always the very first and surprise shot. And indeed at the touch range. But not as a rule.
2. every shot fired under the situation that the enemy knows that I have a gun and am shooting would go for COM exclusively.
3. depending on the time available (a very little time in any case, no doubt) I'd go for a surprise face shot OR a hip COM (well most likely a belly than COM) shot since the latter is way faster and the gun would not appear in enemy's sight.
4. talking CQ in general, my first goal would be to protect myself from the immediate attack, likely with bare hands, then run away to get more room AND simultaneously pull the gun. I believe that many armed people tend to think "through" they gun, they just see everything from the "gun in the hand" point of view. But this may lead to bad decisions. It's already proven several times that if you are ambushed by a knife (or any other melee weapon) wielding criminal, the worst thing you can do is to stand on the spot and reach for your gun. Because you will be dead before you draw. According to practical experiments you need at least 10 meters of distance to be able to pull your gun when an enemy runs at you. And this number is good only if you know that the guy will attack, you are ready and his start is the "timer beep" for you.
So I guess that first of all you have to do something with the attack, then you can attempt to draw.

The only realistic situation for CQ draw I can imagine is this: BG is standing in front of you, knife ready, and asks you to fork over the dough. And you, hands in pockets, either already have your pocket snubnose in hand, (since you were already holding the gun in your pocket) or you would fool him and pretend you reach into the pocket to give him the cash.
 
Quote:
Then why bother carrying a gun or even talk about it?
Quote:
Simply because of the other dimension of risk analysis:

Consequences if one is unable to defend oneself: Extremely severe.

Oh brother. I think I made it clear in my original post. This is MY opinion, my life. No one elses. You wanna prepare for this, go right ahead. See, here's what I said:

Quote:
I'll play the odds again on this one. Just me no one else has to... YMMV, IMO, IMHO... yadda yadda yadda
Click to expand...

Actually, I thought you did carry, Peetzakilla. The question was "why bother carrying a gun" if the likelihood of needing to use it is small. I gave my answer. You can choose to accept the risk and not carry.

Don't tell me I'm underprepared because I don't do what you do. I'm not telling you that you're over prepared because you do more than I do.
Click to expand...

I don't, I won't and I know that you do not.

The question was "Do you think it's realistic to prepare for headshots...?"

My answer: I don't. Do what you want.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I thought I made that clear.
 
Actually, I thought you did carry, Peetzakilla. The question was "why bother carrying a gun" if the likelihood of needing to use it is small.
Click to expand...


I do, because the likelihood is high enough and the preparation is easy enough that I feel it is worth it. That's essentially where I draw the line.
 
The head would not be my first target unless I was absolutely sure I'd score an instant kill. The skull is especially thick in the front and any type of oblique hit is like to veer off around the skull under the skin or exit without entering the brain. That is barring a shot to the eye socket where the bone is thinner.

Better is to shoot for COM and or the area just above the heart between the collarbones. The great vessels are there including the aortic arch and major veins supplying the right atrium of the heart. A hit here will lead to a great deal of blood loss in a minimal amount of time. The blood supply to the brain comes off the aortic arch. Disruption of that leads to anoxia and death fairly quickly. Kill the brain, stop the threat.
 
The best way to do head shots is from close range ambush and with your first round. Sort of like what John Wilkes Booth did with President Lincoln. Booth got close, almost point blank range, and his first shot went right into the President's head from behind..........
Click to expand...

Good Grief!:rolleyes:

What does a political assassination murder of a helpless victim have to do with legitimate SD when your adversary might actually be fighting back and not offering you the back of their head as a target?:cool: Help, Moderator!!

Sometimes I wonder if we aren't playing "can you spot the troll".
 
I'll admit I haven't read all responses...

You shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. If a headshot will end the threat, you take the headshot. I will say though that if a threat is still running at you, aim center of mass and touch off two rounds.

Shoot two rounds.
Assess the threat.
If still a threat, shoot two rounds.
Assess.
If still a threat, shoot two rounds.

That's what I was taught in my class.

[EDIT]
I forgot to mention...
You DON'T shoot to kill.
You shoot to stop the threat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top