headshots in sd situation (failure to stop drill)

A

alberich

New member
Do you think it's realistic to go for headshosts in selfdefence situations, namely if you failed to stop an attacker with two center of mass shots? Any practical experience?
 
id assume that if 2 COM shots didnt stop a assilant, he is either high, or wearign some type of body armor and headshots would be justifed to end the attack
 
No, I agree that a headshot is the most effective, I'm asking if you believe you can hit the head with a handgun when under attack (like the bad guy running at you, head rocking from side to side, a fraction of a second to shoot). I've been shooting only rocking IDPA targets, thank God never a living being, but I believe that I can hit a head only if
1. the target don't move, like I'm trying to put down somebody who is endangering somebody else (the target is not aware of my presence)
2. "touch range" situation, like he just pulled a knife and I got my pocket gun and fired it in his face
 
if center mass hits arent having any effect due to what appears to be body armor, and they arent close enough to assure a hit on a ducking/weaving head....rapidly shoot up the lower torso(groin) there are major arteries and nerve bundles that run through that region..and folks dont motivate very well with a shattered pelvis....easier to hit than the head/rarely has armor. main thing is dont be stingy with lead till the threat is stopped
 
I believe that I can hit a head only if
1. the target don't move, like I'm trying to put down somebody who is endangering somebody else (the target is not aware of my presence)
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Unfortunately, heads tend to move quite a bit. For that reason, I practice shooting head-sized moving targets. There is two benefits. First, it helps with hitting a head-sized target, but also helps with making better COM shots on torso-sized moving targets.
 
Depends on the back stop really. Head shot, in public, among crowd? No, I don' think I'd try.

Guy rushing me in some lonely parking lot somewhere. That'd be my first choice.

+1 on pelvic girdle as a target. Having shattered my femur very near the ball of the hip in the past, I can say from personal experience it is EXCRUCIATING. If you're using something that's going to break bones I don't see too many people remaining mobile after a hit like that, and hey, once they're not mobile any more that head shot becomes a lot easier if it's still needed.
 
If you can't hit your headshots in training you won't hit them when you need to.

I recommend two places to shoot for: upper chest or head. Other areas of the body should be targeted if there is a weapon retention issue. A pelvic shot is the last place I'd shoot.
 
If you can't hit your headshots in training you won't hit them when you need to.
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Well, I think there is a huge misunderstanding. What I want to say is that hitting a head of a figurine target, standing as still as targets usualy stand, is not much a problem. But in reality this will never happen. Just imagine a person running, the head is bouncing from side to side. Now imagine somebody who is running to you or shooting at you and trying to throw off your aim. And if you drill the 2xCOM + 1xhead sequence, chances are that you will try to do that by instinct no matter what's situation, and you will miss the headshot, losing precious time and endangering bystanders.

If you miss the head, the bullet will travel pretty far away. If you hit the lower part of the body, the bullet will likely hit the ground soon enough if it passes through.

But that's all just a theory and my target shooting extrapolation. I just wanted to ask somebody who have combat experience or at least knows what happens during real shootouts, if the headshot attempts really work, or not (as I believe). Well I can imagine trying to "climb up" with my point of aim on the assailant's body and maybe even trying a headshot from the contact situation, hoping to disorient him or blind him with the muzzle blast even if I miss, but I can't imagine going for the head of a moving target at some higher distance.

I practice shooting head-sized moving targets.
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Can you describe how to do it? Do you use rocking targets or something like that?
 
One of the many excellent aspects of training with Louis Awerbuck is the mover he uses (consisting of manequins with multiple "bystanders" and one bad guy, all of which are in constant motion). Either individually or in pairs, you have to work to shoot past the "bystanders" and hit the bad guy in the head. After a couple of days of shooting on curved targets (to show how the body profile changes depending on how you and the target are positioned), it's not that bad.
 
Only in movies....

Head shot - in a high stress situation? Not good nor purdent.

Center mass is taught for a reason. I would say it's hard enough to make it center mass when you are under stress let alone to aim at the head.

Sounds like you shot IDPA and you know how hard it is already to hit a head shot on an stationary IDPA target. The "rocking target" units (basically a moving target) makes this shoot exponetially harder.

I say to any regular joe out there thinking they can hit a head shot on a moving target at 7-10 yards is fooling themselves. Granted 7-10 yards (21-30 feet) after running 100 yards, doing 20 pushups and under 2 seconds after being blindfolded to hide the target from you. Take the blindfold off and then shoot under 2 seconds on a moving rocker target.

Or from an IDPA scenario - shooter is facing uprange (not downrange) and the target is released as they turn around.

I'm okay and I'll be very honest that's not an easy shot at all.
 
I'll play the odds again on this one. Just me no one else has to.

Odds of needing my gun: small
Odds of needing to shoot: smaller
Odds of needing more than one shot: very small
Odds of needing more than 2: vanishingly small
Odds of needing "2 to the chest, 1 to the head": ridiculously small as to be beyond imagination to the point that I don't care about it


YMMV, IMO, IMHO... yadda yadda yadda
 
Do you think it's realistic to go for headshosts in selfdefence situations, namely if you failed to stop an attacker with two center of mass shots? Any practical experience?
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That's what we are trained to do.

In my opinion, you should expect a 'failure to stop' from any service caliber handgun. If there is no reaction after aiming for center mass, I would aim for the head.
 
My friend and neighbor Peetzakilla is right here but to answer the question, Sparks 2112 is pretty much on the money here. It's not "should I go for a head shot?" but "what is the possible collateral damage?" I'm a trained marksman with a rifle or pistol and just playing the odds, a head shot is much likely to draw a miss than shooting for center mass. If 2 shots to the chest are ineffective, I'll unload the remainder of the clip in the direction of a man's noggin. 1 hit will definitely be effective. I would be much less likely to do this in a scenario such as a crowded area for obvious reasons.
 
I like to think I'll plunk two to the chest, two to the groin, and if he is still moving, trigger trigger trigger from groin up to head til I'm out of amo. Then I'll reload and repeat. Of course fancy foot work is required, just trying to put distance between me and BG.
 
If I'm a defense situation I'm doing what my administration of justice teacher does, empty a whole mag on them without a second thought. He told me when he was a on the force, a rookie partner of his got shot by a .44 magnum or something because they only fired two shots in his chest and as he was going down, he was able to fire the gun and hit his partner. Just stop the threat as soon as possible imo.
 
The head is a VERY small active target, trying hitting it when moving is going to be tough, to see how hard it is, hang a small salad sized paper plate on a string and get it swinging a bit, then shoot at it. if outdoors, hang a cantaloupe on a string and get it bouncing like the guy is running.

If you hit it, well then you can feel comfy resorting to it in a SD shoot, otherwise, COM and despite what people say about them wearing a vest, people wearing a vest and getting shot with a proper sized handgun generally are really HURTING from the experience. A retired SS agent I know was shot while wearing one and he said, he preferred taking a 95 mile fast ball to the sternum vs getting the shot. He was shot with a large caliber revolver, I think a .44 spec. He was down and groggy for a good ten minutes after the shot.
 
Well, I think there is a huge misunderstanding. What I want to say is that hitting a head of a figurine target, standing as still as targets usualy stand, is not much a problem. But in reality this will never happen. Just imagine a person running, the head is bouncing from side to side. Now imagine somebody who is running to you or shooting at you and trying to throw off your aim. And if you drill the 2xCOM + 1xhead sequence, chances are that you will try to do that by instinct no matter what's situation, and you will miss the headshot, losing precious time and endangering bystanders
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What I'm getting at is that if you are in a gunfight, you will default to your training and your skills. If you suck at shooting in training, chances are you will suck at shooting in a gunfight. If you can't hit a variety of shots in a training environment you probably won't be able to hit them if you are actually shooting at someone who is trying to kill you.

If you miss the head, the bullet will travel pretty far away. If you hit the lower part of the body, the bullet will likely hit the ground soon enough if it passes through.
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Agreed.

But that's all just a theory and my target shooting extrapolation. I just wanted to ask somebody who have combat experience or at least knows what happens during real shootouts, if the headshot attempts really work, or not (as I believe). Well I can imagine trying to "climb up" with my point of aim on the assailant's body and maybe even trying a headshot from the contact situation, hoping to disorient him or blind him with the muzzle blast even if I miss, but I can't imagine going for the head of a moving target at some higher distance.
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I have been in a gunfight before. It isn't fun.

If you shoot someone in the head, they will most likely die. The big issue here isn't if the headshots are effective it's can you hit your target (headshot)? Depending on my weapon I'm using (H&K P7 makes me look good) I can make moving headshots (me stationary, target laterally moving) out to about 8-9 yards fairly consistently.
 
What I'm getting at is that if you are in a gunfight, you will default to your training and your skills. If you suck at shooting in training, chances are you will suck at shooting in a gunfight. If you can't hit a variety of shots in a training environment you probably won't be able to hit them if you are actually shooting at someone who is trying to kill you.
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Indeed. But I still fail to get your meaning, what you wrote is obvious and I agree. What I'm trying to say is that I believe that a drill like two rounds to COM, wait 2 seconds, one hit to head at a perfectly still target seems to be counterproductive.
Since my training sessions with fullsize pistol typically look like "place the target at some 15 meters then empty the magazine into it, aiming at COM, as fast as possible while maintaining the following accuracy criterion - all rounds in the figure (ie. no misses and no danger to bystanders) and 90% hits in the alpha zone" I tend to fully agree with Whiteboy67, guntotin_fool and others COM shooters. My drills concerning head are:
1. one carefully aimed shot for head or small target (like the "sniper" shot at a terrorist in terrorist - hostage scenario) at medium distance
2. draw and face shot with my pocket snubbie at some 2 - 3 meters as fast as possible (knife armed drugged mugger closeup scenario). This one is aimed again for the center of the head, ie. nose - eyes area.
Note that all the headshots are the first rounds fired, every other shots would follow the COM scenario as described above. I just like to believe that 13 .45ACP hits to the alpha zone shall stop even a vest wearing guy.:)

EDIT: Oh and I can reload, too. Got another 15 rnd mag and planning to get at least one more. :)
 
for real world, go com, then pelvic to take the wheels out of the bad guy then go to the head which it's movement will be reduced due to the pelvic shots. one thing to maybe think about and i say maybe because in real world, it might happen too fast, etc. might be a good idea to try to shoot to one of the sides of the groin and get hips. i know for a fact that you can shoot through the groin and not hit pelvic bone. hard to miss the bone, but murph is a bitch sometimes. but, that is dealing with green tip 5.56 and such. hell, it will zip through at close distance on someone anyway. again, my 2 cents and it's what we teach.

cheers
c
 
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