head shots malicious?

I was told in my CHL class that "courts don't usually like headshots because they feel it's 'excessive force'"
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Bullets; whether one or a dozen, whether they are marketed under the name of "Surgeon's Nightmare", or "Recovery Friendly", whether aimed at the big toe or the brain ... are considered deadly force.

If you are justified in using deadly force, a bullet in the brain or the upper spine (both quite likely to cause death) is your best bet - if you can do it.
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Exactly LAK. Deadly force is deadly force, there is no room left for "excessive". Dead is dead, kind of like people saying "a little bit pregnant", 0 or 1 on or off yes or no there no middle ground with deadly force.

Shooting is deadly force, whether you shoot to maim, stop, kill, scare, whatever you say, if you shoot the gun at the person that is posing the threat to you, you are employing deadly force there is nothing more excessive.

If deadly force is justified I am going to shoot because I am going to live through the situation. I am going to see my family again, I am going to feed my dogs again, I am going to work, sleep, eat dinner, etc...

All that said it is possible the BG will live, sue you, the DA may be a gun grabber, the local police chief may not like "uppity citizens" whatever. In my mind none of that matters if somebody is about to hurt my family or me. All that other crap can be dealt with. I am prepared and willing to do what has to be done to protect my family and myself from death or grave bodily harm head shot, center of mass shot, whatever.
 
FrankDrebin
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As this banter between you and I seem to have taken this thread off course, and you appear to enjoy the argueing for arguement sake, I will take this opportunity to conceed your apparent superior, and unmatched knowledge of the things relating to law. I will refrain from further post of off topic items in this thread so that you too may return to the issue at hand.
I would perhaps suggest that as you don't seem to recognize that homicide, and manslaughter are capital crimes which will be investigated, that you remember what a once wise man proclaimed. "The man that would have himself as a lawyer, has a fool for a client". I will take comfort in knowing that I, for one, won't take such an obtuse approach to legal dealings should I ever find myself in this situation.
 
In NY, "in any prosecution for an offense, justification as defined in sections... is A DEFENSE.

ALSO though "...conduct which would otherwise consititute an offense is justifiable AND NOT CRIMINAL when:"...standard SD stuff...

Seems it could go two ways - get charged with an offense (probably 1st degree assault) and show/prove justifcation as a defense in court; OR have it investigated/seen as justifiable in which case no criminal action has taken place in the 1st place.
 
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convicted of shooting someone because he told the police or prosecutor he was shooting to wound. Where does Ayoob get this stuff? Does he make it up?
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When choosing between Ayoob's statements, or of the anonymous person online claiming to be a cop somewhere, I'll choose Ayoob's statements every time.

Simply, his statements are the same as the cops who taught my CCW class. Personally, I'm going to listen to what the people that would be arresting me are going to say about what i can and can't do.
 
One of the specific instance Ayoob aluded to is where a person used deadly force to stop a stomping attack by a group against himself and his brother. When questioned about why he used deadly force, he stated that "he didn't want to get his butt kicked." Unfortunately, his attorney didn't follow up by talking about disparity of force, the serious and life threatening injuries that can come from "getting one's butt kicked" etc. The jury was left with the defendent stating that he didn't want to get beat up so he shot someone. Bad witness prep, bad lawyer, bad result. Happens all the time in non-defensive shooting cases, so why should it be a surprise it happens here?

If I'm ever in a shooting, whether or not I will face charges depends on how the investigator, the prosecutor and the public sees the shooting. It's only a good shoot if a reasonable person would find it as such. It's my job to start the ball rolling for such a determination by explaining why I shot, and why it was reasonable. I can easily articulate why a head shot is a valid and justifiable technique, and that it is taught by the best instructors (including those who probably taught the cop doing the investigation).
 
Buzz,
Who would you explain this to? Ayoob also suggests shutting up until your lawyer is present. Others have said being in the right and explainign that right off the bat makes you a "good guy" and may get the cops/investigators on your side 'quickly'.

In general: Would you (any 'you' out there) take the stand if charged?
 
Who would you explain this to? Ayoob also suggests shutting up until your lawyer is present. Others have said being in the right and explainign that right off the bat makes you a "good guy" and may get the cops/investigators on your side 'quickly'.
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His suggestion is actually to do both, start them on your side then shut up.

Step 1: "Officer, this man attacked me and tried to kill me. I shot him because I was in fear for my life. I will press charges."
Step 2: "These people were standing here when it happened, his gun/knife fell there, and mine is here."
Step 3: "I hope you understand but I just went through something traumatic. Please call an ambulance. I'll cooperate fully after I get checked out."
Step 4: shut up and call an attorney.
 
As this banter between you and I seem to have taken this thread off course, and you appear to enjoy the argueing for arguement sake, I will take this opportunity to conceed your apparent superior, and unmatched knowledge of the things relating to law. I will refrain from further post of off topic items in this thread so that you too may return to the issue at hand.
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Well, your're partially right, because I DO like arguing for the sake of arguing. However, in this case, I only replied because I know the stuff you're posting to be blatantly WRONG. There's nothing obtuse about it. Instead of being sarcastic, why don't you try to learn something. There are people who will gracefully admit when they're wrong, and there are those who will rationalize their mistakes all day long. You seem to be among the latter.

I would perhaps suggest that as you don't seem to recognize that homicide, and manslaughter are capital crimes which will be investigated.....
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There you go again!!! I'm going to address this because some people may be taking what you're saying to be true: First "Homicide" is no more of a crime than "Operating a Motor Vehicle". "Homicide" is no more than the killing of a person. You have crimes like First Degree Murder, Negligent Homicide, Manslaughter, etc...THESE are crimes just like "Operating A Motor Vehicle Without A License" or "Operating a Motor Vehicle While Intoxicated" are crimes. There is no such crime of "Homicide".

Secondly, I would suggest that since you seem to like to just throw around words, the meaning of which you don't know, you should post the elements for the crime "Manslaughter". THEN, post the maximum sentence. THEN, tell me in what state of the union the crime of "Manslaughter" is punishable by death. You DO know what the term "capital crimes" means don't you? MANSLAUGHTER IS NOT A CAPITAL CRIME ANYWHERE IN THIS NATION!!!

When choosing between Ayoob's statements, or of the anonymous person online claiming to be a cop somewhere, I'll choose Ayoob's statements every time.
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I prefer not to take anyone's word for something that I can readily verify for myself. Whether that person is a 30 year street cop veteran of the South Bronx, or, like Ayoob, a part time cop on a 3 officer department who MIGHT take one or two barking dog reports in a month. Literally. Instead of taking the word of a guy who makes a full time living writing about what he does part time, why don't you call a homicide cop at a busy police department and ask him how many legitimate self defense shooters he's seen prosecuted? I mean, if you really want to know that is.
 
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Instead of taking the word of a guy who makes a full time living writing about what he does part time, why don't you call a homicide cop at a busy police department and ask him how many legitimate self defense shooters he's seen prosecuted? I mean, if you really want to know that is.
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If I were to do that here, I would get forwarded to the public relations department, who would then refer me to the DA's office, who might or might not discuss it.

By the way, there is something majorly wrong with your proposition. By definition, a legitimate self-defense shooter is someone who's shooting has been determined is legitimate. It's the effective equivalent of saying "ask a sex crimes cop how many times a partner to a perfectly consentual sexual act has been charged with a sex crime." Actually, the answer to that is more than a few, but I digress.
 
If I were to do that here, I would get forwarded to the public relations department, who would then refer me to the DA's office, who might or might not discuss it.
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Then go to a cop bar and ask around.

By the way, there is something majorly wrong with your proposition. By definition, a legitimate self-defense shooter is someone who's shooting has been determined is legitimate. It's the effective equivalent of saying "ask a sex crimes cop how many times a partner to a perfectly consentual sexual act has been charged with a sex crime." Actually, the answer to that is more than a few, but I digress.
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OK, then I'll contend that you are not likely to be charged with a crime when you shoot someone who you reasonably believe to be about to cause you great bodily harm or death. Nor are you likely to be sued. This applies to "normal" people and not those who shoot someone for looking at them funny and then claim self defense. The number of people who are charged because their idea of "reasonable" differs from the prosecutor's is too small to change my position. We could go through the newspapers and post cases where a shooter claimed self-defense and determine if our idea of "reasonable" is the same as theirs. I think you'll find that anecdotally, you are not likely to be charged in self defense shooting. I'll even go one step further and say that in MI, you will not be charged for shooting a fleeing felon. This does not mean that the fleeing felon must be tried and convicted by jury between the time he commits his felony and the time you shoot him.

I'll go first....Also, this article is appropriate to the "shooting better than the cops" thread. The person in this story was not charged.

Police: Bar Owner Kills Two Robbers With Single Shot
Wayne County Prosecutor To Review Alleged Robbery, Shooting

POSTED: 8:03 p.m. EST November 3, 2003
UPDATED: 8:09 p.m. EST November 3, 2003

Two suspected robbers are dead after a former police officer and owner of a Detroit bar fired a single shot, Local 4 reported.
Video


Archive: Family Searches For Answers In Fatal Shooting





The robbery and shooting happened early Sunday or late Saturday at Adela's place on the city's southwest side.

Police say the 49-year-old woman who owned the restaurant -- a retired Detroit cop who was a former member of Mayor Coleman Young's security team -- tried to hold the suspects in the parking lot until police arrived. But when the two men attempted to speed away, and nearly ran over one of her employees, she fired a single shot that apparently struck both men, according to police.

"We've had some robberies in that area. We have some evidence now that may indicate that someone was robbed there and assaulted there. There attempted to be another assault against one of the employees, before the owner of this establishment fired one shot in an attempt to stop a fleeing felon," said Detroit police Inspector Marilyn Hall-Beard.

The two men -- Dorian Gordillo, 22, and Rosalio Becera, 33 -- were later found dead from a bullet wound in a car parked on the Interstate 75 service drive, according to police.

One of the men was reportedly still holding a beer in his hand.

Family members of Gordillo and Becera were initially confused over their deaths, Local 4 reported.

"He was a very good guy. He would never look for trouble. I don't understand what happened. I hope we can find some answers," said Barbara Gordillo, the sister-in-law of one of the victims.

Officers who had responded to the incident at the bar wrote down the description of the car that left the scene and later made a match with the vehicle in which Gordillo and Becera were found dead, Local 4 reported.

While the shooting appeared to be justified, the Wayne County prosecutor was expected to review the case to determine if the bar owner would face charges.
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Ayoob has served as an expert witness on a long list of civil and criminal prosecutions regarding defensive force, so I suspect that he could back up what he's saying if he felt comfortable blabbing in public about the specifics of the legal difficulties of the individuals he's worked with.
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Ah...so he COULD back his statements up....he just doesn't because they're secret??? What makes him an expert anyway? I saw him from start to finish at this trial www.larrynevers.com
if anything, I thought he helped the prosecution. (he was hired by the defense). Caveat: I never said that Ayoob said that people are LIKELY to be prosecuted and sued after a self-defense shooting. I'm just taking the word of the Ayoobian disciple who SAID he said that. But...if he DID say that, he's wrong and I'll back it up if anyone wants to go somewhere where gambling is legal and put up some dough! My definition of "likely" is : "1 : having a high probability of occurring or being true : very probable""

Well, considering you live near the semi-perennial murder capitol of the US - unless you live in Virginia, how often do you hear about defensive shootings in the first place, let alone the years-later legal aftermath?
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I COULD tell you if I wanted to, but I'm hiding my backround information like Massad!! I'd guess I hear about defensive shootings a couple times a month maybe? More if I talk to any of the homicide cops that month. As far as the civil suits, I can only tell you about the police shootings, but I don't know why same thing wouldn't apply to civilian shootings, especially since the regular citizens don't have the money that the city does. Most of the good ones don't result in a lawsuit, even with the deep pockets of the city. If a notorious officers is involved, maybe.
 
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From what I understand 2 shots to COM may momentarily halt your attacker, but may not stop him. This moment of hesitation is the point where the head will be the most still. If after the initial shock they continue towards you it is time to turn out the lights.
 
I like something I read by Pat Rogers recently

Don't wanna paraphrase...this stuff is golden!

One of the problems with training is how we define things.
For example, the Mozambique as Cooper taught it was a Hammer to the chest (the term "double tap" not being sufficintly definied), than pause to steady and take the head shot.
Having personally experienced this, my advice is that there isn't a whole lot of time to pause (unless you want to spend the rest of your life waiting for the perfect shot...). The Failure Drill is 3 rapid shots. We defined it that way at Gunsite as soon as Cooper sold the place.
Head shots are difficult and the brain is protected from kinetic energy, but let's face it. A shot to the jaw may not kill your opponent but it will probably end the fight.
Don't think so? Remember the last time someone laid one on your snotlocker? Remember all those little spermy things swimming before your eyes? What kind of immediate response could you have provided?
Even without it being a kill shot, it can keep him from killing you while you follow through, ease to reset, and acquire another flash sight picture- and start looking for someone else to fight.....
There are times that head shots are indicated, as well as elbows, feet and hands.
Pelvic shots are not normally viable, but if that is all you have available, it ain't gonna' make him feel any better either. Be prepared to follow up.

I teach it this way.
Standard response: Two rounds, center mass. (Don't get locked into this one)
Failure Drill: Hammer body, single brain. I don't use the term "head". I want it more defined.
Non Standard Response (NSR): Shoot center mass of what you have until the threat is eliminated.

The problem with an NSR is that a pistol may not be viable if your bad guy de jour is wearing a hard shirt, or leather jacket etc. All your in gun ammo will be expended for naught.
The NSR is excellent with an M4 of course, but we also teach Hammer Chest/ Hammer Head for specific reasons.
 
I prefer not to take anyone's word for something that I can readily verify for myself. Whether that person is a 30 year street cop veteran of the South Bronx, or, like Ayoob, a part time cop on a 3 officer department who MIGHT take one or two barking dog reports in a month. Literally. Instead of taking the word of a guy who makes a full time living writing about what he does part time, why don't you call a homicide cop at a busy police department and ask him how many legitimate self defense shooters he's seen prosecuted? I mean, if you really want to know that is.
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Or I could do like I said, and listen to the cops that taught my CCL class who agree with Ayoob.
 
I know we're talking about a civilian situation here, but........

When Col Charlie Beckwith briefed President Carter and his Cabinet officers on Operation Rice Bowl, the Iranian Hostage Rescue mission, Warren Christopher (Dep Sec State) asked what would happen if any of the Iranians interfered with the Delta operators during the mission.

"Shoot them" was Beckwith's reply,
"Shoot them?" Christopher asked,
"Yes sir, twice in the head"
"Couldn't you just shoot them in the shoulder or something?" Christopher demanded.

So, yes I guess it is malicious.....................................
 
Or I could do like I said, and listen to the cops that taught my CCL class who agree with Ayoob.
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You can listen to whomever you choose. Why do you suppose Ayoob has so much credibility by the way? Police experience? Because he writes magazine articles? What is it?
 
Personally, I don't think that it follows naturally that Ayoob's part time police status would make his ideas inferior to those of a full time policeman.

One could claim that a mechanic understands a car better than an automotive engineer, because one works with cars all day, every day, and the other just sits at a desk. I don't think that's true though.

I am not trying to promote Ayoob either, but I don't think he should be discounted just because he's not a daily officer.
 
In Texas this would fall under two sections

Deadly Force and Use of Force. You can use deadly force against deadly force. Force is used till the person attacking you stops. The guy that had the knife who was shot was down on the floor so he would be considered stopped. You cant run over and shoot him to kill him. Now if he gets off the floor and comes back at you you can use force to stop him again. Same with the guy who ran away from the car. You can use the necessary force to detain him for the police but you cant shoot him unless he progresses to use of deadly force.
 
You can listen to whomever you choose. Why do you suppose Ayoob has so much credibility by the way? Police experience? Because he writes magazine articles? What is it?
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I have here sitting in front of me Massad Ayoob's nine page list of credentials and references.

How long would yours be?

He lists instructional experience going back for over 30 years, at 19 different schools.

How far does yours go back? How many schools are on it?

He's the National Chairman of the committee on police firearms training for ASLET. Who are you, again?

His personal training list looks like he got bored before he finished writing down all the courses he's taken and the places he's gone and the people he's trained with. How many could you list?

Sure, he only works "part-time" as a police officer. That's with the rank of Captain. He's in charge of training for his department. And he's been a cop since 1972. How long have you been in?

He's "only a part-time" cop because he trains between 800 to 1200 people a year, while appearing as an expert witness in various court cases, while writing more magazine articles, books, and other publications than most people have on their bookshelves.

He's got 17 lawyers in 12 states ready to swear that he's an expert in his field and knows what he's talking about. How many lawyers -- in how many states -- would say the same of you?

But go ahead and tear down the man's good name, anyway. :rolleyes:

pax

I've read more articles than he's written, so I'm the expert! -- some internet wag
 
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