HD in a small apartment..

Bubba a .38 pistol at close range to the torso will stop almost any man; even if he is wearing a vest he will probably be knocked down. If a 9mm can do it certainly a .38 will work and the police carry 9mm's mostly. I like .357 but I only have one in a lever action rifle; guess I could always grab the henry:D
 
A .38 to the vest is not going to knock anybody of normal human size down. You may fall down, or hop about and swear for a bit, but you are not going to get knocked down. Rumor and myth. Not a 9mm either.
 
This discussion is very helpful, as it makes me think about how I would handle a defense situation. That being said, the comment from mnero that "when the shooting starts and it is your cherry experience, you are in full panic mode (almost everyone)" is something to consider. Practice helps, of course, but when the situation actually arises I wonder how well I would actually perform. Probably not as well as I would like!

I keep a Glock 36 (.45 acp carry model, for those who don't know) in a drawer near the bed, with 185gr frangible bullets in the rounds. But nothing in the chamber: I don't want to accidentally pull the trigger on a round while retrieving the gun. I do worry about how well I could cycle the slide to load a round.

My pump shotgun, on a rack in the bedroom, has the following sequence of shells:
first: blank
second: #4 birdshot
third: 00 buck
fourth: #4 birdshot
fifth: 00 buck

I like the idea of a night light, to have some chance of identifying the person(s) in the room.
 
Madlink-Just my opinion, but what about replacing that blank with a non-lethal round? I just think a blank is like a bluff, and if the situation is serious enough to grab a shotgun I don't want to try to bluff.

OP- The first thing I would do is look into the construction of the building. Brick? Firewall? Which walls are they?
You could have a defensive plan where your lines of fire are at those walls.

Also, I think a shotgun in addition to being more intimidating, would give you more load options to reduce overpenetration.

Last, what ranges are we talking? The farthest I can shoot in my house realistically is 23'. My load choice for a shotgun would be different than if my distance was (like my parents house) 35' or (in my friends appartment) 12 to 15'.
 
BfloBill - What would be a non-lethal round, other than a blank? The blank is there to make lots of noise, to intimidate a "casual" intruder. Of course a drugged-up BG probably wouldn't be intimidated by it, but there is a real (#4 birdshot) shell right after that one, and a 00 buck just after that!
 
Check these out. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM831-5.html They fire a 40 gram bean bag projectile designed for "animal and riot control" for "behavior modification at close range".

I have no personal experience with them, but they could serve the same purpose as what you intend the blank for, but if the intruder is a determined attacker it will at least slow him down so you can jack one of your real rounds into the chamber.

I also saw (although I'm sure they would not be available to the public) an experimental round that was a taser round. It was a self contained taser that fits inside a 12 ga shotshell and is activated when fired. Obviously this is not the option I was referring to, I just thought it was cool.:D
 
They fire a 40 gram bean bag projectile designed for "animal and riot control" for "behavior modification at close range".
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Those rounds are capable of, and have, killed people - and that is when used by law enforcement officers who were trained in their use. They are a poor choice for home defense for the following reasons:

1. In many states, they are limited by the same laws that govern the use of lethal force - meaning if you can't legally shoot them with the buckshot, you can't legally shoot them with this either.

2. If it is a deadly force situation, then you face an immediate threat of death or serious injury that needs to be stopped quickly. In that scenario, shooting at someone with a round that isn't designed to either injure or kill but occasionally does is the worst of all possible worlds.

3. When police utilize these kinds of rounds, they do it while wearing body armor and with other officers wearing body armor backing them up with lethal force. Doing it in your pajamas by yourself might not be as successful.

This subject has been discussed in more depth here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445382

While I'd agree that having the first round loaded with a blank is a bad idea on a number of levels, I'd say that on the sliding scale of bad ideas, it is still a better idea than using a less-lethal round.
 
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Really Henry? I have never actually seen it, so you may well be right. If you actually look at the amount of momentum the average 38 special +p has at 10' I think you are. Bubba suggested that it has a low chance of incapaciting one even with a torso hit; now that is certainly not true. Most men shot with a .38 round in the torso are going down. Certainly he is right that a 12 gauge shot gun with OO Buck will do better, but so would a bazooka or a grenade launcher. I saw that in the remake of the movie Scarface; how cool was that:D
 
Let me tell those who don't know; it looks bad, it smells bad and it taste bad...you won't forget not ever. Sorry to be so damn preachy but well it hits home when I hear people talk about killing so casually. Killing is wrong it is always wrong; sometimes it is neccesary, but that don't make it right!
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This may be true for most of us, that we don't know what it's like. But when it comes down to me and my family's safety I'm pulling the trigger. I live in Las Vegas where they seem to think home invasions are a weekend hobby. They were hitting houses as close as 2 1/2 miles from my home. The latest attack, a little over a week ago, was just 1/4 mile away.

I (now) own a G27 .40 and was thinking the same thing, that it may pass into my neighbors house. So I'm going to get a Mossberg 12 gauge for a couple reasons. I don't want to aim in the middle of the night. It will be pistol grip and have a front grip as well. I'm not concerned with 5, 6, or 7 +1, if they stick around after the first couple of shots they are some gutsy SOBs.
I would also feel more comfortable about the buck shot hitting various objects/furniture around the house and not penetrating the wall like the small powerful round from the G27. Even in an apartment there must be something in the way of you and your neighbor than just the wall. I can't imagine you pointing dead square at their wall, it should go through a door way/next room then into the wall? But if that is the case you can always go next door and find out exactly what room of theirs you're aiming at. You may get lucky and discover it's just their refrigerator and kitchen cupboards.
 
OOO buck might be a good comprimise on the penetration concerns. Is a rifled slug likely to go through an individual and still have any ballistic properties left or will it tumble around inside the person and therefore be of little risk to anyone else? I have never seen one used except on a paper target, but I would think they would not be likely to exit a person with much spin or force left in them. For me bird shot then a rifled slug in the second barrel, but I am wondering about the risk of using the slug? It is a 20 gauge coach gun.
 
Quick question that's kind of on topic but kind of not at the same time:

I've seen a lot of .223 HD ammo that claims to be designed for 'maximum expansion without overpenetration', would these be good to even consider or would the frangible route be best?
 
I would be reluctant to use the .223 rem. If you hit the target it won't exit, as it tends to tumble inside the body and lose all of its ballistic properties, but if you miss and it goes through a very thin wall or a window, it may travel a good distance still.
 
I second the opinion that over-penetration is over-scrutinized.

Minimize the total number of projectiles fired by both you and the assailant.

If this means using 00 buck to quickly end the fight, then so be it.
 
Glaser safety slugs or corbon. Very low penetration in walls, doors etc. Devastating to the human body. If corbon is good enough for the air marshals its good enough for me.
 
Back when I lived in an apartment 2 years ago, I keep my 9mm loaded with 100 gr. Corbon Powerball (i.e. a 90 gr. hollowpoint with 10 gr. of rubber in the nose). Prior to buying the 9mm, I also kept a Winchester 110 gr. hollowpoint load in my .357. My philosophy was any load will be able to go through those very thin walls, but if I can cut down on how many walls it went through that’s at least reducing the risk of harming someone innocent. The light/fast hollowpoints I picked has less than optimal penetration on a target (10ish inches in ballistics gel if remember right), but are more likely to either stay in the target or lose most of their velocity if they exits. Also, a light/fast bullet is more likely to fragment if I missed and hit the siding the lined much of exterior my second apartment.
 
Achilles11B said:
I've seen a lot of .223 HD ammo that claims to be designed for 'maximum expansion without overpenetration', would these be good to even consider or would the frangible route be best?
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Like anything .223 needs good ammo selection. Some of the really light rounds are so limited in penetration that they are limited in where they are useful. And as mnero pointed out, if you have a large window or plank exterior in your background, .223 and buckshot will both go through those; but .223 may travel much farther.

I would stay away from frangible ammo. Frangible is usually used to reduce damage on backstops at ranges. It tends to be less reliable than normal ammo and inconsistent in what it does from what I've read.

jct61765 said:
if corbon is good enough for the air marshals it is good enough for me
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According to this article, Air Marshals use Speer Gold Dot 125gr JHP.

And you can learn more about Glaser Safety Slugs here.
 
hand guns, rifles and shotguns penetration tests

IMHO, any round that will reliably stop a bad guy will also penetrate multiple walls, but to many people's surprise, most rifles and hand guns penetrate more walls than buck shot. If you value your life and your families' lives more than that of a bad guy, don't use bird shot for home defense in any dwelling, therefore #4 buck shot would be your smallest, least penetrating option. Practice, preparation, practice, practice and preparation are all very important. I live in a duplex, and I use #3 buck shot in my 20 gauge close to my bed (I keep my 12 gauge in another section of the house loaded with #1 buck shot). It's readily available at most stores that sell ammunition. I don't suggest attempting to clear any rooms, unless you have to get to a loved one in another room. Get insurance, and let the police handle that. If you do have to get to a loved one in another room, a pistol is more easily maneuverable, but in a shoot out a shotgun w/ buck shot will end the fight the quickest (assuming you do your part--center of mass). However, practice and preparation are key with any weapon you decide to go w/, because the best weapon to use is the one that you are the most efficient with. Oh ya don't forget to practice and be well prepared!
Check out these links for penetration tests with different guns and loads
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
 
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