Have you used a 22LR in SD?

And why precisely Evil Monkey, do you feel the Ellifritz data is "nonscientific" and "BS"?

Ellifritz simply compiled all the real world shooting data he could lay his hands on. To my knowledge, nobody has suggested this data was faked as opposed to that presented by Marshall and Sanow.

What data do you consider non-BS and scientific?
 
It's pseudo science. It's not a compilation of anything but retarded numbers. It was debunked on another forum years ago. Nothing but anecdotal non-sense masquerading as science.

How many bullets of a certain caliber hit the heart? Aorta? Vena Cava? There's no information on that, among other issues.

The reality of bullets in general was described in a earlier post of mine. It takes very little energy for a typical bullet to completely penetrate a human thorax. Your skin, muscle, organs, ligaments, etc, are no match for any bullet. You will have a deep hole in you and if that hole is placed somewhere very important for your cardiovascular system, you'll be dead in half a minute. It doesn't matter if it's a 22lr or a 45acp.

You need to get away from this notion of "one shot stop" BS. That only happens when the person being shot doesn't want to fight anymore, or he got hit in the head. If you really think a large mammal like a human being can exsanguinate in a quarter second, you are out of your mind.
 
It is empirical data, nothing more. Empirical data is based on observation alone and you can draw from it whatever conclusions you wish to. I am sure that Ellifritz would have liked to include data on exact hit placement if such data was available in sufficient numbers to be of any statistical significance. He did include data on the percentage of hits that were to the head or torso.

I have not bought into any one-shot stopping power nonsense. My point was only that 22LR can kill, and has in fact killed a good number of people, a point with which you seem to be in agreement.

I have operated or been involved in operations on a number of 22 LR gunshot wound victims. The first time was as a medical student at Cook County Hospital when I was rotating on the trauma service which saw quite a large number of gunshot wounds of all types. The first time I made a statement to the attending surgeon to the effect that it was "only a 22" and was brought up short by him telling me that I might be surprised at how much damage a 22 can do. The small projectiles are less likely to strike a vital organ but traveling at supersonic speed they are much more likely to fragment upon hitting bone as opposed to larger caliber projectiles which usually deform but remain intact.
 
I don't know if this counts or not but is a true story. About twenty years ago I was at a silhouette shoot and was on the ram line when a gray squirrel ran out on the field in front of all the shooters. The line was full, twelve shooters, twelve spotters, and a good number of spectators. I think the target setters were there also. Anyway, this squirrel ran out in front of everyone at around the fifty yard line while everyone was shooting. The squirrel acted kind of bewildered and started running all over the field every time someone shot. It finally started running toward the firing line like it was after someone in particular. You'd never believe how fast fifty some odd people can get up and run from a squirrel! It looked like a fire in a movie theater. I hadn't finished shooting yet so I took a shot at the squirrel and dropped it dead in its tracks at about the ten yard line. I guess I was the hero that day, I was one of the few who didn't start screaming like a little girl and run for their life. Kind of like facing down a charging lion. I had to walk out and get a stick and carry the squirrel off into the bushes. I think it had distemper, rabies, or something. I've never heard of one running at a bunch of people before. Does this count as self defense? It did stop the squirrel in its tracks so it must be a good caliber for self defense....right? :)
 
1. Discussing how you shot someone might be used against you if you do it again.

2. What's the statute of limitation for criminal and civil actions. Maybe you think you did ok and surprise the law is back.

Last, there are cases of folks using the 22 for SD and folks DRT after being hit.

Here's the endlessly asked and answered points.

1. It isn't that powerful
2. It does kill people
3. It does deter people - most crooks aren't zombie, meth, berserkers
4. Some people use them because of expense or physical capacities.

That's it.
 
My story is similar. I was hiking/camping in a very remote area - no cell phone reception, no other people for miles around as far as I knew. I was young and naive. All I had with me for "protection" was a SA 22 revolver. I had stopped to take a short rest break near a bend in the trail. Then I had that strange feeling like someone was watching me. I was sitting very still and could hear sounds from around the bend, getting closer. Finally I saw him, coming right at me. Luckily I already had my revolver in my hand and the hammer cocked. He was HUGE. I got off one round into his chest and he keeled over twitching. I wasn't 100% sure that what I'd done was legal, so I started a small fire right away. Then I ate the evidence. That was one of the biggest rabbits I ever saw.
 
I believe we can skip the foolish or facetious responses.
I have had similar experiences to pblanc. As a medical student and resident at a university medical center in a large northeastern city, I spent many hours in the ER when the local knife and gun clubs were meeting in the streets, and saw many GSW victims carried in the door. They were recipients of many calibers. The factor that most often seemed to separate the DOAs from others was not so much caliber as placement of the shot. We saw people hit peripherally with birdshot who were inconvenienced, and hit in the chest who were stone cold. Same with .22s - arm & leg wounds were awake and alert (except for one femoral artery hit), but torso and abdomen hits were either dead or in the O.R. for major surgery. Buckshot victims usually DOA, one I saw survived surgery minus a spleen and kidney.
The NYPD has accumulated a multiyear database of police-perp shootings that is accessible on the web. When they looked for factors that influenced the stopping of a gunfight, caliber was not significant but shot placement was. This doesn't mean the that .22 cal. is the single best choice. It does signify that it is very dangerous and can often end an altercation. Read the Armed Citizen columns in the American Rifleman.
 
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