Have I been practicing all wrong?

[DMK]

Nonetheless, learning something is a process that takes place over time.

What they actually need is competence.

Agreed. But all I'm saying is we don't need a whole class of front sight, press trigger, breath before we learn to draw efficiently and move laterally.

What I'm learning from Cunningham and Pincus is that maybe a lot of what we thought we knew is be based more on tradition than reality. You very likely just need to move out of danger, efficiently get the gun out and put your shots into minute of softball at close range.

Besides, a class isn't going to make you competent anyway, regular practice is.

 

[WVsig]

Honestly why ask the question if you do not what to hear the answers? There are lots of people on this board in this thread that are great trainers and you are basically ignoring what they are telling you because you read something in a book.

Yes learning to move is important but if you do not have the basics of fundamentals of shooting accurately then when the stress happens you will not be able to hit the intended target.

One has to ask have to ever taken a training class because IMHO staying on a square range working on trigger control is exactly where everyone should start because everything worse builds on that.

 

[DMK]

Honestly why ask the question if you do not what to hear the answers?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to come off like I'm not listening or grateful for the responses. That's just how I process things. My teachers all have a love/hate relationship with me because I challenge everything I'm taught.

 

[raimius]

OK, so let's say you can really efficiently run behind something and draw your pistol. Then what?

Frankly, going to a firearms class to learn to run better is a terribly inefficient training choice.
Knowing how to draw efficiently is a valuable skill, and logically taught at a firearms class. However, if you can't hit what you point your firearm at, you are not only basing your safety off of a bluff, but you endanger those around you, if you actually do pull the trigger.

Being able to hit what you are shooting at is a basic, fundamental skill. You have no business shooting at people if you have no idea where the bullets will go, no matter how justified you are in defending yourself. I've seen new shooters get ahead of themselves and miss VERY easy shots because they let the simple stress of being on a clock get to them.

 

[manta49]

My practice would be going to the range and having fun, some IPSC etc. I would only get some formal training if I enjoyed it. I would not be dragging myself to some training that i would probably never need.

 

[Brit]

One reality, of living in my wonderful adopted Country, the US of A.

I had to leave a reaction, bought and paid for, in Liverpool UK.

This being lashing out sometimes! Americans of the Law Abiding types, who sport a broken nose, it is nearly always a sport injury!

In my Home town? Normally contact with a fist, or forehead (Liverpool Kiss!)the fuel for this activity, beer.

As I was born in a Pub, and spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool, I broke quite a few noses, and mine is still straight.

Violence is violence, with weapons or without, the stepping up to the plate with a Glock 19 on your belt, and elevating a walk in the cool evening to your vehicle in a parking lot, to a life threatening attack by one or two strangers, criminals?

Is, to me, very difficult with no previous experience with any form of fighting.

Flowing in to an attack, the only difference being which tools will be selected from your tool box! Is based on your fighting spirit, the tool selection is based on your skill with these tools.

 

[zincwarrior]

Nonetheless, learning something is a process that takes place over time. For everything we do, for everything we learn, there is always we haven't yet learned what would be of use to us today. And I'm sure all of us older types have the occasional "if I only knew then what I know now" moment.

And in the learning of various types of physical and mental skills, the effective learning of some skills will depend on having laid a foundation of other, more basic, skills. That's simply reality.

Nothing is keeping you from starting in the next 24 hours. Start practicing drawing and dry firing for 30 minutes a day a couple of times a week until you get comfortable drawing/firing, and moving. One can practice the quick side step/draw/shoot (from cover) at home. Watch Oprah, it will motivate you.

One reality, of living in my wonderful adopted Country, the US of A.

I had to leave a reaction, bought and paid for, in Liverpool UK.

This being lashing out sometimes! Americans of the Law Abiding types, who sport a broken nose, it is nearly always a sport injury!

In my Home town? Normally contact with a fist, or forehead (Liverpool Kiss!)the fuel for this activity, beer.

As I was born in a Pub, and spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool, I broke quite a few noses, and mine is still straight.

Violence is violence, with weapons or without, the stepping up to the plate with a Glock 19 on your belt, and elevating a walk in the cool evening to your vehicle in a parking lot, to a life threatening attack by one or two strangers, criminals?

Is, to me, very difficult with no previous experience with any form of fighting.

Flowing in to an attack, the only difference being which tools will be selected from your tool box! Is based on your fighting spirit, the tool selection is based on your skill with these tools.

sorry but er...what?

 

[DMK]

Frankly, going to a firearms class to learn to run better is a terribly inefficient training choice.

Nobody said anything about running. You won't be able outrun a bullet.

Being able to hit what you are shooting at is a basic, fundamental skill. You have no business shooting at people if you have no idea where the bullets will go, no matter how justified you are in defending yourself. I've seen new shooters get ahead of themselves and miss VERY easy shots because they let the simple stress of being on a clock get to them.

I agree completely.

However, go back up to my original post and read the link I provided.

I don't think I'm communicating well. I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

 

[Sharkbite]

I don't think I'm communicating well. I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

And i dont think anybody else is saying that either. BUT, you need to start somewhere. As a professional weapons and tactics trainer, i subscribe to the "crawl, walk, run" philosophy.

All "advanced" skills build on the fundamentals. If you cant draw and put a round/rounds where you want them while standing still on a static range, how the bleep can you expect to do it while moving laterally to cover dynamically??

A safe and efficient draw stroke is best taught without the additional thought process of having to move. Once a student can efficiently draw and put 2-3 round COM at a REASONABLE speed...only then should the concept of moving during the draw even be thought about.

You dont see olympic athletes begining their training process at max effort. And i submit that a gunfight is the ULTIMATE COMPETITION!!!! There are no silver medals given.

 

[James K]

No, I don't suggest going to a firearms class to learn to run for cover. But part of that "awareness" is knowing that to your left are parked cars, to your right a wall, to your front a light pole, all of which can provide cover.

I still don't understand the thinking that I have to carry a large protractor and make sure my feet are at a perfect 45 degree angle before I can return fire or even draw my gun. It seems to me that such "advanced" skills do not enhance the basics, they destroy the basics. Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Jim

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

Except that standing there and learning to shoot good groups, although not necessarily in a Bullseye stance, is part of learning to shoot well. The thing is that for meaningful self defense training there are other things one needs to learn as well.

...Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Do you know of any such a class? Can you tell us what class it is and who teaches it? I've taken a bunch of classes, but I've never had a class anything at all like that.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Since I teach the martial arts we have such stances as the horse stance, L stance, front stance, cat stance...

Well yes, you are supposed to put your feet in particular spots when doing forms.

Why? To learn the technique really well.

But we teach on the street you ADAPT your stance to the circumstances.

Yes adapt. You don't stay in the traditional horse stance, nor L stance.

Now you may for a second or so use the stance as best as the ground will permit, but then move on and transition to the more mobile front stance (not unlike a boxers.)

The same goes for shooting stances and ways to hold the gun. You adapt them to the circumstances.

But you should know the stances well and understand them (same with sights and trigger control.)

The key is learning to improvise. Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

Now one wonders where that came from?

Deaf

 

[pax]

I still don't understand the thinking that I have to carry a large protractor and make sure my feet are at a perfect 45 degree angle before I can return fire or even draw my gun. It seems to me that such "advanced" skills do not enhance the basics, they destroy the basics. Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Can you tell me who teaches that class?

It's actually a serious question. Please do name names and schools.

pax

 

[WVsig]

The best advice I ever got at a class about stance was to stand naturally. To stand in a comfortable manner. The same principle was applied to moving with a gun. Walk or run as you would normally. You do not have to reinvent the wheel. Take a natural stance which for me is an isosceles. Depending on terrain a foot might be in front of the other.

I will stress that I believe that the key to shooting well in any situation is fundamentals. If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation.

This is paramount. It is more important than anything else you will ever learn IMHO. Again everything else builds on that foundation. Marksmanship is the base of the pyramid. If your marksmanship is poor under stress the building will crumble.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The best advice I ever got at a class about stance was to stand naturally....

But again, what comes naturally isn't necessarily the best idea.

We teach a monthly NRA Basic Handgun class. Most students have absolutely no prior experience with guns. And almost all of our students lean back when holding the gun out in firing position, whether in a Weaver or an Isosceles. That is their natural stance holding a handgun, and it is not a good ides.

We try to correct that. We show how a more forward stance is stronger and allows them to better manage recoil. A more forward stance is also better balanced and would facilitate movement if movement is necessary or desirable.

We work with basic principles, not rigid rules. So we show students how to stand in a manner that is strong, flexible and balanced. We show certain fundamental characteristics of both a good Weaver and a good Isosceles.

If one is well grounded in the basic principles of a good firing stance -- strong, flexible and balanced -- he can improvise and adapt as needed to suit the circumstances.

You can see this if you watch good USPSA and IDPA shooters. They will instantly assume an unconventional shooting position appropriate to the situation, e. g., barricades, obstacles, uneven ground, stairs, etc. But whatever they have to do to accommodate the circumstances, their posture and stance will reflect good, basic principles.

...If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation....

I agree, and that's been my experience in training and in competition.

 

[pax]

...If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation....

I agree, and that's been my experience in training and in competition.

That makes three of us.

What I have found is that when people spend a lot of time practicing a BAD use of the trigger -- that quick jerk that "comes naturally" to most new shooters -- those folks can spend a lot of time doing the tactical peepee dance, and feel like they're really getting somewhere. It looks cool. It's a lot of fun. It gets your heart rate moving and it feels 'real' in a way that putting together the boring building blocks of the fundamentals never does.

But they still can't hit the target.

Worse than that, all those reps of the bad trigger press did do something for them: it very firmly engrained, under stress, a BAD habit. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. When we practice doing something wrong 602 times, guess what? On the 603rd time, we'll probably do exactly the same wrong thing we've been doing all along.

So to throw back a question that came up earlier in the thread: what if that guy's gunfight happens tonight? He still can't shoot. He can dance pretty well, but if his problem can only be solved by efficient, effective return fire, he's not up to the task. Worse than that, he's going to end up spending a lot more time and energy erasing that deeply engrained bad habit than he would ever have needed to spend had he taken the time o build good habits in the first place.

And this is why I say that after watching hundreds if not thousands of shooters take different paths through the training forest over the past 16 years, I come down firmly on the side of crawl, walk, run.

• Learn an effective, repeatable way to hold the gun. Hold it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to load the gun. Load it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to thrust the gun out so that you can see the sights. Do it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to use the sights. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn some alternate ways to use the sights. THEN learn some alternate ways to align the muzzle with the target. Do those things the same way, every time you do them.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to press the trigger, including a good follow through. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn how to do it faster or at greater distance. Do those things the same way, every time.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot from behind cover. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn some alternate ways to do it. THEN learn when to use those alternatives.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot one-handed with your dominant hand. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn how to do the same thing with your non-dominant hand.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot a moving target. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn other ways to do the same thing, and when to apply those skills. Do those skills the same way, every time.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to engage a target while you're moving. Do it the same way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to engage a moving target while you're also moving, under stress, while making good decisions and keeping track of your environment -- and without stepping into traffic because you deeply engrained a completely unconscious and thoughtless sidestep without first freeing up enough brain cells that you could notice your environment and move only if appropriate.

It's a lot more boring to make sure the foundation is in place before we start throwing the skyscraper together. But skyscrapers with a deep foundation tend to hold up better when the earthquake comes.

pax

 

[DMK]

I agree with what everyone is saying. I'm not saying that someone should or could come off the street with no experience and shoot while moving. In fact, I'm not talking about shooting while moving at all.

All I'm saying is that if attacked, the first thing one needs to do is get out of the line of attack (be it gun, knife, crowbar, whatever). The next thing you need to do is put something between you and your attacker if possible. After that, you need to draw your weapon from concealment and only then does stance matter (if at all -What if you are crouching behind cover? What if you've been knocked down? What if you are in a vehicle?).

I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....All I'm saying is that if attacked, the first thing one needs to do is get out of the line of attack (be it gun, knife, crowbar, whatever). The next thing you need to do is put something between you and your attacker if possible. After that, you need to draw your weapon from concealment ...

Well, if you're attacked the first thing you need to do will depend on exactly what happened and how it happened, but the skills you mention are all skills it's desirable to have and will most likely be useful.

...I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.

Because some of those things one would not be permitted to do at most ranges. That's why IPDA/USPSA competition can be helpful.

 

[Sharkbite]

I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.
__________________

Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.

 

[pax]

Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.

Yep.

Loved the FAS4 class at the Firearms Academy of Seattle this past weekend.

pax