Have guns do shoot

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I am not a trained biologist or wildlife expert, but historically it appears to me that the best way to preserve a specific species is to exploit it. The number of cattle killed worldwide must number in the hundreds of millions annually, and there is no shortage of cows, hogs, etc.

Likewise, managing a wildlife population, such as deer, wild turkey, etc. has led to a population boom in the U.S. Tennessee has so many deer that they are now a nuisance species - bag limits are so high that you cannot possibly harvest enough of them in a season to reach your tag limit.

While I agree that humans are encroaching on native species' habitats, it is my opinion that we have just as much of a right to the environment as snakes, alligators, etc., and finding a balance of our competing interests should not result in decreased safety for humans - rattlesnakes, alligators, coyotes, etc. are now thriving species, to the extent that they encroach on human safety.

An interesting issue is that of wild hogs. They are nonnative to North America, introduced by the European settlers. They have no natural predators, and are an extreme nuisance, as well as a danger to humans. I have no problem with the eradication of the feral hog population in North America. They serve no legitimate purpose to the wildlife habitat.

I'm not sure what the issue is with humans killing animals - animals do it every day. The deer taken in its natural habitat has lived a much more dignified and humane life than the feedlot heifer or cooped chicken. Every wild game animal harvested for human consumption is one less animal that participated in the degrading commercial food production system. To me it's a win-win.
 
Members First of all a thankyou for allowing me to rase my concerns on your forum. When people say many species are making a come back, what do you mean? to numbers before large scale hunting or 5 more then last year? With the possible exception, with a species that I know about, is the alligator which are now almost a million or more. However you try and export a live one, even from a farm, and see how far you get with getting an export permit from the U.S Fish and Game.
There was a 2 volume book about rattlesnakes by Laurence Monroe Klauber written in the early 60s and even then he showed the number of snakes caught for snake fairs etc had dropped from one year to another. Then their were in high 100s in some years. How many are caught and killed now. And why do people think its still necessary to continue this barbaric custom?
An Englishman in Peru
 
it is not an obsession with killing anything that moves. it is a tradition, a tradition which originated with our English forefathers. up until fairly recently hunting of pheasants, foxes, squirrels, hairs and other small animals was a favorite past time of wealthy English land owners and when the American land grabs began even the poorest settlers could have as much land as even the wealthiest land barons in England and could enjoy the same pass times that were usually reserved for only the wealthy and powerful. that is why today, it is still considered to be a badge of honor to kill a squirrel or other small animal with a single well placed shot. most of these animals are in such plentiful numbers that there is almost no chance of overhunting and at the slightest sign of such there is usually a bag limit set in motion to help regulate the numbers and help them come back to their old populations.

then there is the tradition of hunting your own food. every american settler had to hunt their own food all the way up and into the 20th century, it wasn't until the invention of the super market where beef, pork and poultry became easier to acquire and more readily available than wild game animals such as elk, deer, pronghorn, bear, pheasant, and turkey. I hunt because I grew up poor and much of our meat came from the wild, I prefer Venison to beef in flavor and texture and I hunt large game with the sole intention of eating them.

likewise I still hone my marksmanship skills by hunting squirrels, mice, starlings, and rabbits.

and I continue to hunt dangerous animals like wolves, cougars, and coyotes because when their numbers are too great they harm the edible animal populations. I do not go on rattlesnake hunts but you can bet your ass if I ever see one near livestock, pets, homes or children it is not going to be alive for long. this is not a mentality with killing anything that moves, it is about enjoying nature to it's fullest and as man is a hunter/gatherer I think it would be like leaving a part of our heritage behind if I didn't hunt and gather mushrooms and berries.

also, this whole post seems to have been geared toward inciting anger with all of us "country bumpkins and hillbillies" that shoot at everything in sight. if that is truly the impression you have developed then perhaps you need to take a closer look at what you've been reading and try to read between the lines.
 
When people say many species are making a come back, what do you mean? to numbers before large scale hunting or 5 more then last year?
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It means different things based on the species. When talking about alligators, the numbers are increasing, indicating that there is no problem with overhunting.

When talking about whitetails, some estimates indicate that the population is higher now than it was in the 1600s. For one thing, there are fewer predators, especially large predators to keep the population in check, and human population is such that hunting is very restricted in some areas. The whitetail deer population is so high in some areas that teams have had to be hired to reduce the populations.
There was a 2 volume book about rattlesnakes by Laurence Monroe Klauber written in the early 60s and even then he showed the number of snakes caught for snake fairs etc had dropped from one year to another. Then their were in high 100s in some years. How many are caught and killed now.
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I think you need some newer data to work from.

The average annual take of rattlers at the largest roundup (Sweetwater, TX) is around 4,000 lbs of animals. The animals are milked for antivenin and then sold for food & skin and other products. Typically the roundup raises around $50,000 a year for local charities.

The take varies from year to year based on conditions, but I can find no data suggesting that there is any downward trend in the take.

The only graph I can find ends in the middle 1990s but shows an upward trend over a 30 year period.

http://www.kingsnake.com/roundup/stats1a.jpg
And why do people think its still necessary to continue this barbaric custom?
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Since it's actually benefiting the local area charities, there's no evidence to indicate it's causing a downward trend in the snake population and it also provides benefits in terms of antivenin, whether or not it's a "barbaric custom" is sort of moot. There's nothing to show that it poses any sort of long term danger to the species in question and it actually provides benefits in other respects.
 
As an Englishman living in Peru, you are no doubt worldly. I invite you to actually vistit the western U.S. (where these reported snake killings happen) and wander around in our vast open spaces. As a snake and reptile lover I am sure you will find plenty of snakes. Don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes to the wildlife of western U.S.
 
Americans use the tv for entertainment, most do not consider it a hall of learning. When I don't like a particular show, I change the channels and do not bash people of a particular geographic region.

It's this bravdo that these TV programes seem to promote that sickens me.
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Boa
There are more deer here than ever before. And not enough hunters. The hunters either eat the deer or give it to a food bank, so people can eat it.
There are not enough hunters.
Each year 1,500,000 accidents are caused by deer, and trucks, cars, and motorcycles, sometimes resulting in death, not only to the deer, but to humans.
We need more hunters.
dc
 
This sourced from: © International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources.


Taxonomy [top]
Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family
ANIMALIA CHORDATA REPTILIA SQUAMATA VIPERIDAE

Scientific Name: Crotalus atrox
Species Authority: Baird & Girard, 1853
Common Name/s:
English – Western Diamond-backed Rattlesnake, Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Assessment Information [top]
Red List Category & Criteria: Least Concern ver 3.1
Year Published: 2007
Assessor/s: Frost, D.R., Hammerson, G.A. & Santos-Barrera, G.
Reviewer/s: Cox, N., Chanson, J.S. & Stuart, S.N. (Global Reptile Assessment Coordinating Team)
Contributor/s:
Justification:
Listed as Least Concern in view of its wide distribution, presumed large population, and because it is unlikely to be declining fast enough to qualify for listing in a more threatened category.


Population [top]
Population: This species is represented by a large number of occurrences. Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped hundreds of collection sites. The adult population size is unknown but certainly exceeds 100,000. This is a common snake in much of its range. Its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, and number of subpopulations are probably relatively stable; population size is probably declining at less than 10% over 10 years or three generations.
Population Trend: Stable
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"With the possible exception, with a species that I know about, is the alligator which are now almost a million or more. However you try and export a live one, even from a farm, and see how far you get with getting an export permit from the U.S Fish and Game."

You're talking about a federal government bureaucracy and their rules and regulations. "Red tape" at its finest. The difficulty is not caused by anything having to do with the numbers of alligators. It's bureaucracy in action.

You are quite welcome to entertain any opinion which pleases your psyche. But do not try to impose those opinions onto us unless you have reasonably current factual numbers to support them.

In the for-what-it's-worth (FWiW) department, the odds are very high that we who post in this forum have more background in outdoor activities than any member of such groups as PETA or HSUS. I've been an outdoorsman since 1941, with exposure to farming, ranching, hunting and fishing as well as with wildlife biologists at a professional level of interaction and learning.

The younger set here at this forum doesn't do so badly, either. Visit and learn.
 
Speaking for myself, I can say that most definitely the "shoot what ever I see" mentality is far from the truth. Again that's for me, I've known many people who really do shoot what ever wanders out in front of them, regardless of anything else. That type of mentality sickens me. If I'm going to shoot, there's a reason. I'm either going to eat it, or I'm killing it to keep it away from our animals (coyotes are the big one here). Of the three freezers in the house, two of them have nothing in them but stuff from the garden and venison.

As for the snake issue, most of the snakes I come across are either water moccasins, copperheads, or common black snakes and king snakes. Unless they are near the animals I tend to leave them alone. My experience with snakes is that unless you mess with them they generally don't need to be worried about. That's just my experience, in my specific area.

As for the specific t.v. programs being referenced (and others similar in nature), to me they're equal parts goofy and demeaning.
 
Art, I believe that hunting is the last vestige of true humanity, when hunting is gone, so will go humanity.

All forms of hunting are older than recorded history, predator and varmint hunting is most likely the oldest of all.
 
12ga,

The snake hunting being referenced is about western diamondback rattlesnakes that are being legally harvested and sold. Not really about controlling numbers, but that's why landowners let them hunt.
 
12ga,

The snake hunting being referenced is about western diamondback rattlesnakes that are being legally harvested and sold. Not really about controlling numbers, but that's why landowners let them hunt.
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I know, that's why I specified that I was just referring to my own experience in my particular area. :)
 
The Whole of man kind were at one time hunter gathers thats a long time ago and in my mind in todays society no longer vaild unless you come from a third world country like here in Peru or are really poor and have no other means to servive. Why are some animals a problem with their numbers I would suggest its man made. First most if not all of the predators were killed off as in the case of the jaguar which was found in Texas. Then with the continuing improchment of people into the wilderness to live their are no suitable places for these animals, like deer, to go. You maybe right when you say there were more in the 1600s but then they had most of the U.S to live in The attitude of I want to live in these places, but I don't want any animals that I feel could harm me be around me. Ok then don't live in such places
People mention the UK and the tradition of hunting may I point out its now illegal to hunt foxes for sport and it showed that hunting did really nothing in controlling foxes as hunters clamed.And people who live in fox county have to put up with foxes taking one or two chickens. There is also the relization that foxes have been forced into some towns that were before open country because there is no longer any game for them to eat also its easier for them to find food. All man made.

With the rattlesnake numbers how many were caught and killed? Even with the amont of 4000lbs that over 1000 snakes Do you think you can take this amount and there will be no effect on local populations? Come on you are fooling yourself. As for venom extraction you don't have to kill the animale to get it. No its basically for a show and a fun day out also to show how dangerous these animals are and how brave the people are who catch and handle them are.The by product is that some charities recive some donations, not a reson for wholesale slaughter.
An Englishman in Peru

Thanks for posting the 2007 status of : atrox. I did notice the use of the word probably They don't know for sure and thats a 5 year old study. Lets hope they are right and there are still enough for people to go out on a days killing spree that is the end result for most if not all of these snakes caught.
As for exporting of alligators I find it ironic that you can get papers to go out to kill them in their 100s but no paperwork to be able to export 2 live baby ones. Only in America.
An Englishman in peru
 
the belief that knowledge of how to hunt and actual practice of such is no longer valid in human society is flawed. case in point, during the great depression, a time of serious financial decline in our nation, many people did not have the money necessary to buy enough food to feed their families.

the united states was far from a 3rd world country in the 1930s yet many had to rely on hunting to keep food on the table. the term history repeats itself is not a fallacy and definitely has not been rendered invalid as of yet. no government is permanent and when any major government falls, usually the economy, and certain social dynamics also decline. this was witnessed in the southern united states after the American civil war when the people had replaced northern money for the duration of the war and then nobody would accept confederate money after the war, literally rendering the entire southern populace penniless, how did those people eat? gardens, gathering, and hunting. the same will happen when the dollar is no longer the accepted currency of the Americas and the same will be true of the Pound, Peso, Euro, Yuan and Yen. hunting is a necessary skillset that should be passed on to our children.

as already stated man has not always taken the time to consider his actions in the long term in relation to his environment. this led to the extinctions species such as the northern rockies Gray wolf, northern american Jaguars, and others however this is not simply an American problem. several other species such as Auks and Dodo Birds were hunted to extinction by English Sailors if I recall correctly. this is why hunting is such a heavily regulated activity in most states, you must take a hunters education course teaching firearms safety, hunting ethics, and environmental conservation before you will be allowed to purchase a hunting license. then you must buy a specific tag for a specific area, for a specific species that are rationed out based on what the populations can handle. in areas with over population extra tags and even waiving of tags can be placed in effect to bring populations down to healthy levels.

you are very right, certain predators were hunted to extinction by narrow minded americans long ago but it would be irresponsible of us to leave these populations unchecked now that they are missing necessary predatory species to control the populations naturally.

finally I challenge you to follow your own argument, if you see a dangerous animal, such as a poisonous snake, or large predator such as a wolf, or cat in your back yard...please feel free to leave him to his business. I'm sure your family will understand when you, your wife or your child is killed, I mean you were asking for it by being in that animals natural habitat.

that kind of logic does not fly with me.
 
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The Whole of man kind were at one time hunter gathers thats a long time ago and in my mind in todays society no longer vaild unless you come from a third world country like here in Peru or are really poor and have no other means to servive.
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You do understand that eating meat from the store is a direct result of animals being butchered, do you not? Are you suggesting that having a butcher kill a beef is acceptable, but hunting a deer for meat is barbaric? We still have to eat, we haven't evolved past ingesting food for sustinence.


Then with the continuing improchment of people into the wilderness to live their are no suitable places for these animals, like deer, to go.
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Where do you sugest we live then?

With the rattlesnake numbers how many were caught and killed? Even with the amont of 4000lbs that over 1000 snakes Do you think you can take this amount and there will be no effect on local populations?[
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The snakes breed, thus creating more snakes. It has been suggested you show evidence of population decline from snake roundups. As a biologist, surely you understand the concepts of reproduction and constancy and the ability of a population to survive/thrive despite predation. It's been a few years since my genetics and evolution classes, but I remember the take home messages.

Plain and simple, a population can sustain and even grow despite predation. The degree of the predation obviously is key, along with other sustainability factors. If you are a biologist, you understand this. The statement I bolded makes me think you may need to brush up on your material.

It looks to me that you are letting the emotion of a critter dying mold your opinins, and not looking at the issue(s) factually. It is a fact that dying is a very big part of ecosystems. Individuals in populations die eventually. There's no getting around it. This is a common thing in the world today, to pretend death is not inevitable or necessary, and I'm not sure I want to get into that. But...

The bottom line is that so far nobody has come forward with proof that rattler roundups, or deer hunting (and whatever else has been brought up) are destroying any populations. I know you are an Englishman in Peru. We have on this board, Texans from Texas. Maybe it would be appropriate to ask them; "hey Texans... how's the rattlesnake population doing in Texas?"

I can only speak for Arizona as I don't frequent the state of Texas. The diamondback population in Arizona is THRIVING;)
 
You can't win with these guys. Can't listen to reason has no grip on reality. Please Boa please show me a more recent study. The roundup that I am guessing you are opposed to, just happens to be observed by a State of Texas biologists. Sure is a lot of Internet biologists/herpatologists as of late. You can come on a guided hunt and see for yourself, there's no secrets. You can visit the snakes at the roundup...good luck finding a hotel though.

I think by jaguar you would be referring to the mountain lion, cougar, panther and the numerous other names, those are very much alive.
 
In most of the places in the world where there are no "hunter gather types" how is that wildlife population doing. Do you see deer and other wildlife as you drive around, or must you go to a specific place namely an estate belonging to a noble or at the least very rich individual with their permission to see wildlife. I seldom make the 23 mile drive to work or back home without seeing white-tailed deer or wild turkeys, or coyotes, occasionally a bobcat, red fox etc. In my opinion we are still a hunter gatherer society we have simply progressed to a point where we pay others to "hunt" (ranchers, butchers etc.) and "gather" (wheat, corn, soybeans etc.) for us.

As for trying to legally export an alligator, we in the U.S. have had more than a few problems associated with imported animals, and plants becoming rampant and causing problems, so our federal bureaucracy takes steps to avoid helping it happen elsewhere. (Think Snakeheads, Burmese Pythons, Africanized Honeybees, Nutria, Kudzu, Serecia Lespediza, Silver and Bighead Carp, Zebra & Quagga Mussels) Curious as to how you feel about the sudden increase in the population of burmese pythons, and other snakes and reptiles in Florida, should we leave them alone, take steps to eliminate them as much as possible since they are non native, or somewhere in-between?
 
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