Has anyone seen this about Reds ?

No, the ATF is not singling them out... they're doing the same thing to Red's as they're doing to FFL's across the country. They're searching records to find anything they can to justify the agency's existence and develop stats so they can show Congress a high percentage of dealers have one or more "enforcement actions" in the past 2 years.
 
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Honestly I don't see how when the company threw away paper work and left blanks on the forms. That to me is an FFL not doing their job.

I know there are some FFLs out their that may be singled out for small things, but this one is not small.

The only bashing I have seen so far is from them to the ATF. I mean they are trying to compare themselves to Waco. Paper work is the main job of an FFL and if they can't do it then they shouldn't have a license.

The rules aren't that difficult, fill out form completely and save all records. Not that hard. I think these guys are giving ammo to the people that want to shut down gun businesses.
 
I just can't keep quiet any longer. From the Times-News (note: this link is only good for 7 days) in Twin Falls:

Red's loses its gun license
By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer

TWIN FALLS - Red's Trading Post, one of Idaho's oldest gun shops, can trade no longer.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revoked the business's license to buy, trade or obtain guns after an ATF audit found Red's employees sold guns improperly numerous times between 1999 and 2004.

Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

The ATF revoked Red's license March 5, shutting down 90 percent of the income that has sustained the store through three generations of Horsleys.

"They are taking very minor things and blowing them out of proportion," said Terry Horsley, the shop's owner and Ryan's mother.

The shop, at 215 Shoshone St. South, can sell the 1,000 guns remaining in its inventory, and can continue selling gun accessories and ammunition.

But accessories account for only 10 percent of its revenue.

"I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said.

The five-year audit found violations over a period in which 10,000 guns were sold, Horsley said.

"Mistakes happen. Stuff happens," Horsley said. "I think it's unreal expecting to have 100 percent non errors."

The bad news, which comes on the heels of record profits, could now close the store, Terry Horsley said.

Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision. On Feb. 23, Red's legal team filed a petition in federal court in Boise.

The judicial review will consider, among other things, whether Red's "willfully" violated the law.

"'Not willful' is one of their petitions," said Deborah Ferguson, assistant U.S. attorney, representing the ATF's industry operations. "'Willful has been defined by case law. I would expect the court to look at that legal authority."

Case law defines "willful," an essential component of the allegations, as "they knew of the regulations and did not abide by them," Ferguson said.

Ryan Horsley said Red's was found responsible of several violations in an earlier audit.

But he said the infractions are petty and do not justify a revoked license.

"There's no missing guns," he said. "There are errors but everyone has errors."

Walt Sinclair, a Boise co-counsel for Red's, said the errors were clerical, not intentional.

He said it's not the first time the ATF has revoked the license of a Twin Falls gun dealership.

"Blue Lakes Sporting Goods lost its license," Sinclair said. "They had been there forever. It was a family business. It was a real success story, but this type of petty, technical noncompliance caused them to end up going out of business."

The ATF has 60 days from Feb. 23 to respond Red's petition.

The ATF Seattle Field Office spokeswoman declined to comment on Red's case until after judicial review.

"If the individuals reapply, the facts from the revocation would be considered for any future licenses," said spokeswoman Julianne Marshall. "Industry Operations will consider their application. However, they have an interest for public safety. This license was revoked for a reason."

A judge may still overturn ATF's decision.

Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts for the Times-News. He can be reached at (208)735-3241 or by e-mail at cfriedman@magicvalley.com.
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I have long debated saying anything about this....

On Jan 27th, while looking to see which wheelgun I liked best (SRH or SBH) I was in Red's (My wife was out in the truck, she didn't want to come in).

While talking to one of the three clerks about what I wanted, in walks two gentlemen. I couldn't help but overhear much of their conversation, as my clerk was busy on the computer tracking down some guns.

Gentleman A stated that he was from Idaho and his friend (Gentleman B) was from Utah was visiting and was interested in a self defense firearm. The clerk asked A if he lived around here. A replied that he was from Sun Valley. B asked to see a specific Kimber.

My attention was diverted, as my clerk had found the gun I was looking for... But I distinctly heard Gentleman A ask Gentleman B if that was the one he wanted. B said yes. A said he would buy it.

I quickly finished up my business (rather abruptly) and left. When I got outside and around to the parking lot, I looked at the cars. One of them had US Government plates.

When I got into my truck, I asked my wife if she had seen A and B (I gave her a description). She said yes. I asked her which vehicle they had come in. She pointed to the vehicle with the G plates.

I successfully made my trade and am the proud owner of a New Model SBH, blued w/7 1/2" barrel. Detailed here.
For those that may have followed my story, now you know what took so long and why I didn't buy it at Red's.

I want to stress that I did not see the transaction. As I left, I did see the clerk get out the 4473's, but did not see money pass, forms being filled out or anything else of that nature. I want to stress that.
 
A couple of points I'd like to raise....

BATF has been on a tear recently. If their audits show an error and that error was noted in a previous audit -- i.e. failing to record the date a document was signed -- they are classifying it as a "willful" violation. Even if it is the only error in 365 days they can find. Here in CA, we've lost 3 shops with a 4th undergoing appeals, just in the SF bay area.

As to Red's, if they don't or can't do basic paperwork with procedures to verify all the information is recorded, then they assume the risks. I try to help out by reviewing the form while they're repackaging things up in the box and have found one transposition error that may have saved the dealer grief in an audit.

With regards to Al's comments...
It's interesting that one local gun shop was told by the government that he HAD to hire a really nice older man with 70% hearing loss (service-connected disability) to work in the shop as they could not discriminate against his age or his disability as long as he could otherwise do the job. Yet BATF presumes that clerks can hear their conversation in a noisy shop or with their backs turned. Go figure.

It's also my understanding that BATF needs to complete the sale of the gun to make a case. If this is true, then why shouldn't the agent be charged with perjury for indicating he's the end user of the gun on question 1 of Form 4473?
 
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Hi Folks,

I've seen a great deal of traffic coming from this thread to our site, so I thought I would weigh in. First of all, let me point out that I am merely an employee of the dealer in question here and yet I am here unpaid and on my own time to speak my mind. I'm a well qualified sales and IT professional and will have a job somewhere no matter what the outcome of this case, but this whole thing just makes me angry.
I have worked for this dealer for 3 years and have seen nothing but stellar paperwork and efforts to eliminate illegal transactions. The BATFE is targeting transactions from 10 years ago under different management. We have double and triple checks in place now to ensure those errors don't happen again.
Simple fact of the matter is that we did not make any illegal transactions even under previous management. Just simple alleged filing errors, and yes we have a staff member devoted to paperwork alone these days.
As for "forms left blank" we are talking about the "long gun" / "hand gun" box being checked on a Ruger 10-22. No brainer....it's a long gun. Easy fix. Any "thrown away" paperwork was found and verified by the ATF. We even went to one customer's home to verify serial numbers on one gun, but that wasn't good enough.
Thanks for all who supported us so far, and we will beat this one way or another.

Matt - Reds Trading Post
http://www.redstradingpost.com/atf.php
 
http://xrlq.com/2007/03/10/will-the-hughes-survive/#comment-130258

It says there (and obviously I'm neither a lawyer nor a US resident, so I don't know) that the place for standing for a lawsuit against a FedGovernment official is in his place of duty, so to sue the head (Director, right?) of the BATFE you'd have to bring suit in the D.C. courts... just where they had that nice ruling.

If Red thinks he's been mistreated, perhaps he should sue not just for his own good, but for everybody's good?
 
Paper work is the main job of an FFL and if they can't do it then they shouldn't have a license.
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The main job of an FFL is to sell guns.

The rules aren't that difficult, fill out form completely and save all records. Not that hard. I think these guys are giving ammo to the people that want to shut down gun businesses.
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I think these guys are giving ammo to the people that want to repeal all gun laws.
 
Welcome to the Firing Line, Matt.

Can you set my fears to rest (see my previous post #6 - scroll down past the quoted Times News story)? Were you working on Sat, Jan 27th at about 11:00am? There was this nice young lady that was waiting on me at the time the two gentlemen came in, looking for a gun. She was having a little difficulty with the computer, finding the particular model (SBH in .44mag w/7 1/2" barrel) I was interested in and another sales clerk helped. I was looking to trade a Ruger KM77 MKII in .300wm.
 
So am I to understand that the one Gov. fella was going to purchase a gun for the other? Isn't this legal? Can I not buy you a firearm or you I if we know the other person and know it is legal for them to own a gun? I have bought guns for my Dad for his B/day. That was 35 or 30 years ago but still..Or am I reading things between the lines that are not there?

Sounds like when it comes to the ATF your guilty and must prove your innocence. Makes me think of stories I have heard about the IRS, scary.
 
Acording to BATF one person in the store cannot buy a gun for/ on behalf of another, I guess they consider that a "Straw" purchase. I have a older friend near here that was retired and had a gun shop in his basement simply because of his interest in guns and make a few retirement bucks. He had 2 men come in and ask to see a gun, the one wanting to buy it said he left his wallet at home, the other said that he would buy it. Well end of the line for my friend, he was forced to auction off all his guns at a considerable loss. As far as I think, if buyer A forgot his wallet and buyer B was sold the gun, it wasn't a straw purchase, the FFL sold the gun to buyer B period,regardless of the 2 mens intentions, what they do outside the store is not the FFL problem. I also know another that lost his licence because of some very minor clerical mistakes. Neither of these guys are selling guns to criminals, mostly to people they actually know. I think it would be a no brainer for BATF to compile a list of what gunshops most of the illegal guns or guns used in crimes are from and look to those particular dealers for explination.
 
Don't you get it? If it was 2 g men it might be a set up. They could be like when they send in people to be id for beer or smokes. If the sale goes bam you just commited a crime my friend.

Oh and this guy matt he's worked for red's for 3 years and is the one who put in all these checks and he dealt with the atf.

On other forums he has said the store is under new management yet it is family owned.

If anyone is interested at all he had to say or the lack there of check out the beretta forum then look for I hate the atf.

Also this guy matt led to say that they were lucky pretty much because the atf didn't come in with guns drawn and somebody shot.
 
Update On Red's!

It looks as if I was wrong.

Ryan Horsley and Red's Trading Post are back in business!
Red's back ... for now; judge finds fault with ATF findings
By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer

TWIN FALLS - Try peeling the smile off Ryan Horsley's face.

A federal judge has - for now - given his family their gun shop back.

A federal agency revoked Red's Trading Post's right to buy and trade guns again after finding the gun shop had committed errors in its gun sales.

But U.S. District Judge Edward J. Lodge ruled Monday that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had exaggerated and omitted some of its findings used to justify revoking Red's license.

And Lodge granted Red's March 20 request to stall the ATF's sanctions until he reaches a final decision on whether revoking Red's license was legal.

"It was a great decision," Horsley said. "I am ecstatic. I was just waiting. For nearly two months this has been exhausting."

Horsley, whose gun inventory had dropped from 1,000 to 160 guns, is reopening suspended accounts - both on the distributor side and in advertising. His largest distributor agreed to hold $200,000 of merchandise while the dispute goes to court. Now, Horsley is hoping his sales, which had reached their pinnacle in more than 70 years of business, will spark back up.

Lodge wrote:

• "The ATF speaks of violations found during the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."

• Some violations had been counted twice.

• "Granting the preliminary injunction would not place the public's safety in jeopardy."

• Between the hardships Lodge's ruling would cause the ATF and Red's, "the relative hardships tip sharply in favor of Red's."

Lodge's injunction grants Red's full operation status until Lodge makes a final ruling at an unscheduled future hearing.

"I have been getting all these calls from distributors and manufacturers, and everyone else, just congratulating us. You should see my inbox right now," Horsley said. "Getting all our advertising back in place, getting all our orders set, arranging - it's just kind of nuts. It's not over yet."

Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts. He can be reached at (208)735-3241 or by e-mail at cfriedman@magicvalley.com.
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Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.
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Is this where I say "Well, DUH!"? Play by the rules or die.
 
There is an update to the Red's Trading Post story. Please note that the TimesNews only keeps urls for 7 days before archiving the stories (requires a subscription to access after that time).

First there was this from last Saturdays Times News (06-02-07):
Fight with feds leads filmmaker to T.F.
By Chris Steinbach
Times-News writer
TWIN FALLS - Think of it as anti-Michael Moore movie premiere.

Aaron Zelman, a Wisconsin-based documentarian, will premiere his film, "The Gang," in Twin Falls, he said Friday, because of Red's Trading Post's struggles with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives.

Zelman and Jews for Preservation of Firearm Ownership will present a free showing of the movie at 7 p.m. June 13 and 14 at the Lamphouse Theater, 223 Fifth Ave. S.

"He puts a real face on the documentary, so to speak, because it's happening to him," Zelman said of Ryan Horsley, Red's Trading Post manager.

While Moore is known for documentaries such as "Bowling for Columbine," which was critical of gun ownership, Zelman said he wanted to premier his movie in a gun-friendly state.

"We thought it would be a good combination," he said of the movie and what has been happening at Red's.

Horsley has been embroiled in a dispute with the ATF that has included:

* The federal agency stripping the family owned gun shop at 215 Shoshone St. S. of its license on March 5.

* A federal judge granting the shop a reprieve on April 30, and questioning whether revoking Red's license was fair.

* The agency on May 10 blocking Red's from buying 12 used guns.

* The agency citing Red's on May 23 with three new violations, according to Horsley. He said Red's was cited for not having its records in alphabetical order, not recording in its acquisition book the full addresses of people who bought guns, and not recording the first name of a resident alien who bought a firearm.​

Horsley said the shop provided copies of driver's licenses and other identification for all of the customers in question.

A spokeswoman for the ATF in Seattle could not immediately be reached for comment.

"This is going to be a real eye opener for people who are unfamiliar with the ATF and their practices," Horsley said of the documentary. "It really shows that (we're) not an isolated case, that this is happening all over the country."
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I'm hoping to make the showing on the 14th. But...

Then there was this from Yesterday (06-05-07):

New violations found at Red's
Gun shop braces for ATF's next move
By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer
TWIN FALLS - In the rear of the shop, two federal agents sifted through the merchant's gun sales files.

The agents' supervisor - who had traveled to Twin Falls from Spokane, Wash. - paced about the floor talking on her cell phone to the northwest chief of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

No doubt about it: Agents last month blasted Red's Trading Post manager Ryan Horsley with a higher level of scrutiny than the gun shop has ever known.

The ATF had revoked Red's license March 5 after audits turned up numerous violations. A federal judge found some of those findings were exaggerated and granted Red's a temporary reprieve until he delivers his final ruling.

With its most recent scan on May 23, the ATF managed to stick Red's with three new violations that auditors in the past either overlooked or condoned.

Now Horsley is sure the ATF will send its new findings to the judge.

"We take this seriously," said Julianne Marshall, spokeswoman for the ATF. "And we will provide updates to the court."

Past audits overlooked errors found May 23 in the three-man audit. More than that, Horsley said, a past auditor had even OK'd or recommended some of the red-flagged procedures.

According to the May 23 audit, Red's is not filing its gun sales in an appropriate order.

Red's did not seek proof that a resident alien buying a gun lived 90 days continuously in Idaho before the sale.

And in 34 cases, Red's left out a mailing address from a box on the gun sales form.

Marshall would not comment on why Linda Young, the Spokane Area ATF supervisor, had participated in the audit. She would not say why errors audited from the past 1½ months were not raised before.

Keeping files in order

Horsley said gun sales records are filed alphabetically. And each letter is filed chronologically.

But the ATF told him he cannot order files both ways.

"Is Adams before Anderson?" Young asked Horsley, to make the point that his files were not ordered alphabetically. "I said, 'Probably not.' She said, 'That's a violation if they aren't in perfect alphabetical order.' In the four previous audits this has never been in question."

Horsley said in a 2005, Agent Caleb Rushing actually "suggested" he arrange files "with the last transaction toward the front for quick and easy access."

Young told Horsley, Rushing was wrong.

Proof of Idaho residency

Red's did not require a resident alien to prove he lived continuously in Idaho for 90 days.

The customer provided work stubs from two months, Horsley said.

But he did not offer stubs for all three months. That left one month undocumented.

Missing street addresses

The ATF claimed 34 forms are missing addresses from the field where it is required on applications.

Horsley claimed Rushing said that because the box is so small it was sufficient to include a name, city, state and ZIP code. Horsley said in a separate place the store keeps photos and copies of all customers' driver licenses.

Horsley anticipates the ATF will notify the presiding federal judge in the case about the new violations.

Marshall declined to speak outside of generalities.

Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts for the Times-News. He can be reached at 735-3241 or by e-mail at cfriedman@magicvalley.com.
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Looks like the BATF is gonna try and "take them down" in any manner that they can. Let's hope Judge Lodge can see through these shannigans.
 
The little F-troop hoods are all PO'ed because that nasty judge smacked 'em on their little wee-wee. Now they'll stomp and huff and bluster and try to make Red's look bad any way they can...regardless of how corrupt and/or stupid they have to get to do it. Disgusting.
 
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